bertusgeert 1 #1 December 2, 2011 I've been reading much less about wingsuits over the last few years, but was discussing aerodynamics with a buddy the other day when he asked me - what kind of glide ratios do those things get nowadays? Well, I don't know. Can someone answer that? Just a quick question. Thanks! --------------------------------------------- As jy dom is moet jy bloei! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #2 December 2, 2011 From .095 - 3+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #3 December 3, 2011 QuoteFrom .095 - 3+ I submit that any GR < 1 isn't flying, but falling at an angle.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fasted3 0 #4 December 4, 2011 QuoteQuoteFrom .095 - 3+ I submit that any GR < 1 isn't flying, but falling at an angle.*** Do you ever dive in your airplane? If so, at what point do you consider it falling at an angle, and at what point do you resume flying again? Falling, stalling, flying dirty; I've been there, but flying a steep angle at high speed is still flying to me.But what do I know? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #5 December 4, 2011 Quote Quote From .095 - 3+ I submit that any GR Sure, Ask a glider! Under 10 it's not flying just controlled falling. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #6 December 5, 2011 Pretty bold move being the definer of the term. So in turn I submit that if you can't gain altitude you're not flying, only gliding. So nobody flies. If you're in an aircraft you aren't flying, you're riding in an aircraft. Regular skyjumping is falling. Wingsuits are gliders. Paragliders and hang gliders are aircraft. Looks to me like the birds are still the only ones doing the flying.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nickfrey 0 #7 December 5, 2011 Isn't there a quote something like, if riding in a boats not swimming how can riding in a plane be flying... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #8 December 5, 2011 Quote Isn't there a quote something like, if riding in a boats not swimming how can riding in a plane be flying... Twisted, but true. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #9 December 5, 2011 Quote Quote From .095 - 3+ I submit that any GR at least it is falling with "some" style... scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
granpasc 0 #10 December 5, 2011 A Porter with failure engine, it's already 13 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Basjkall 0 #11 December 5, 2011 We are defined as gliders: In flight, a glider has three forces acting on it as compared to the four forces that act on a powered aircraft. Both types of aircraft are subjected to the forces of lift, drag, and weight. The powered aircraft has an engine that generates thrust, while the glider has no thrust. In order for a glider to fly, it must generate lift to oppose its weight. To generate lift, a glider must move through the air. The motion of a glider through the air also generates drag. In a powered aircraft, the thrust from the engine opposes drag, but a glider has no engine to generate thrust. With the drag unopposed, a glider quickly slows down until it can no longer generate enough lift to oppose the weight, and it then falls to earth. - Stalling The wings on a glider have to produce enough lift to balance the weight of the glider. The faster the glider goes the more lift the wings make. If the glider flies fast enough the wings will produce enough lift to keep it in the air. But, the wings and the body of the glider also produce drag, and they produce more drag the faster the glider flies. Since there's no engine on a glider to produce thrust, the glider has to generate speed in some other way. Angling the glider downward, trading altitude for speed, allows the glider to fly fast enough to generate the lift needed to support its weight. (Newton's Third Law of Motion.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #12 December 5, 2011 QuoteWe are defined as gliders: In flight, a glider has three forces acting on it as compared to the four forces that act on a powered aircraft. Both types of aircraft are subjected to the forces of lift, drag, and weight. The powered aircraft has an engine that generates thrust, while the glider has no thrust. In order for a glider to fly, it must generate lift to oppose its weight. To generate lift, a glider must move through the air. The motion of a glider through the air also generates drag. In a powered aircraft, the thrust from the engine opposes drag, but a glider has no engine to generate thrust. With the drag unopposed, a glider quickly slows down until it can no longer generate enough lift to oppose the weight, and it then falls to earth. - Stalling The wings on a glider have to produce enough lift to balance the weight of the glider. The faster the glider goes the more lift the wings make. If the glider flies fast enough the wings will produce enough lift to keep it in the air. But, the wings and the body of the glider also produce drag, and they produce more drag the faster the glider flies. Since there's no engine on a glider to produce thrust, the glider has to generate speed in some other way. Angling the glider downward, trading altitude for speed, allows the glider to fly fast enough to generate the lift needed to support its weight. (Newton's Third Law of Motion.) Indeed, and a GR < 1 implies producing more drag than lift. Hardly a major achievement in aerodynamics.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bertusgeert 1 #13 December 5, 2011 Quote The wings on a glider have to produce enough lift to balance the weight of the glider. The faster the glider goes the more lift the wings make. If the glider flies fast enough the wings will produce enough lift to keep it in the air. Ok, I'm gonna bite on this one. This is if you hold the variable of the type of wing constant. The other solution is to change the wing, and fly slower...like, perhaps, a paraGLIDER ;-) I was under the impression (and hope) that there has been more improvement in glide ratios over the years. It would be interesting to know max glide ratio over time and how it's improved - seems it's tapered off? One day we'll ridge soar in wingsuit configuration. Or perhaps even have enough control over attitude to be able to fly slow & thermal, and then tuck & dive like birds of prey. --------------------------------------------- As jy dom is moet jy bloei! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #14 December 5, 2011 Quote One day we'll ridge soar in wingsuit configuration. Or perhaps even have enough control over attitude to be able to fly slow & thermal, and then tuck & dive like birds of prey. In a wingsuit? Not likely. We don't have the wingload/wingspan ability. We're fat, short by comparison to even the least efficient bird out there. More like Ostrich' than like osprey. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #15 December 5, 2011 Just for fun..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fgcMNel64M Scott C. "He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Basjkall 0 #16 December 5, 2011 Use your head buddy, With the right angled ridge and wind speed it is possible. Wing suits can be made with huge cambered wings to get max lift, and very little sink and forward speed. Then it is also possible to land. Its all about the relative speed to the ground.. Wait and see Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bertusgeert 1 #17 December 5, 2011 Quote Wait and see Exactly, I am of the same mind. Oftentimes I come across people who think some things will never be possible. I disagree. 200 years ago, horseless carriages were impossible to those same people, nevermind "flight". Look where we are now. So many possibilities. It's just a matter of technology & knowledge. Here's a fun one from Dave Prentice. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR3VPsipsoU --------------------------------------------- As jy dom is moet jy bloei! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #18 December 5, 2011 Yeah - Christian Bale did it in the Batman movie. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #19 December 5, 2011 QuoteQuote One day we'll ridge soar in wingsuit configuration. Or perhaps even have enough control over attitude to be able to fly slow & thermal, and then tuck & dive like birds of prey. In a wingsuit? Not likely. We don't have the wingload/wingspan ability. We're fat, short by comparison to even the least efficient bird out there. More like Ostrich' than like osprey. Even if we could design a suit with a lift coefficient comparable to that of the best STOL aircraft wings (a little over 3, with slats and flaps) we'd still need a forward speed around 70mph with a 15sq.ft area suit and a 200lb exit weight. Seems to me that drag reduction is the way to go. That 200lb exit weight jumper at a GR of 3:1 is still producing some 60 - 70 pounds of drag force. To get a GR around 6:1 we would need to reduce drag to around 30lb force. I don't see this as being impossible with an integrated suit/rig, clean design at the wing roots and tips, and a decently shaped helmet.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #20 December 5, 2011 really?- seems the trick is doing that with a less than rigid design ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #21 December 5, 2011 Quotereally?- seems the trick is doing that with a less than rigid design If it were easy, someone would have done it already.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bertusgeert 1 #22 December 5, 2011 QuoteQuotereally?- seems the trick is doing that with a less than rigid design If it were easy, someone would have done it already. The discussion I was having was with a top hang gliding pilot. Seeing what they do to reduce drag & profile size (wing and harness) is quite amazing. Just from looking at wingsuits & even hanggliders, seems that there is a ton of surface drag (vs. for instance composite, rivet-free aircraft). Don't know much about the phd level equations of all that, but seems that there's some work to do. --------------------------------------------- As jy dom is moet jy bloei! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #23 December 6, 2011 QuoteOne day we'll ridge soar in wingsuit configuration. Or perhaps even have enough control over attitude to be able to fly slow & thermal, and then tuck & dive like birds of prey. The "slow" will never come with a normal human body weight and the amount of wing we can support with our frame and muscles (the defining characteristic of a wingSUIT). Watch the fixed POV videos of a wingsuit flying by an object... it is not even remotely in the same ballpark as a bird or paraglider soaring slowly. If some crazy new technology allows us to support a much larger wingspan, then yes it will be possible, but at that point I wouldn't call it a wingsuit, myself. It is about like telling an elephant that with the right shoes, he can run along the top of a power line like a mouse.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #24 December 6, 2011 QuoteSeems to me that drag reduction is the way to go. That 200lb exit weight jumper at a GR of 3:1 is still producing some 60 - 70 pounds of drag force. To get a GR around 6:1 we would need to reduce drag to around 30lb force. I don't see this as being impossible with an integrated suit/rig, clean design at the wing roots and tips, and a decently shaped helmet. Since the S3, wing suit L/Ds have only improved about 15%. There are already integrated rig suits out there, been out there for a year or two but nothing close to 3:1. To double that is a tough ask. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #25 December 6, 2011 QuoteQuoteSeems to me that drag reduction is the way to go. That 200lb exit weight jumper at a GR of 3:1 is still producing some 60 - 70 pounds of drag force. To get a GR around 6:1 we would need to reduce drag to around 30lb force. I don't see this as being impossible with an integrated suit/rig, clean design at the wing roots and tips, and a decently shaped helmet. Since the S3, wing suit L/Ds have only improved about 15%. There are already integrated rig suits out there, been out there for a year or two but nothing close to 3:1. To double that is a tough ask. ALL the sources of extra drag need to be addressed. I don't think we are anywhere near optimized in that area yet.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
