skydiverek 63 #1 December 10, 2003 I noticed that on most manufacturers install the little yellow RSL tab is on the LEFT riser. On the contrary, Vector installs RSL on the RIGHT riser. What are the pros and cons of the left or right riser design??? One argument I heard (from Bill Booth) is that all broken risers he saw had been the left-side ones. He argued that this was probably caused by uneven shopulder level during deployment (line stretch), from dipping left shoulder when reaching for right-handed hackey. That put more load on left riser breaking it. If that happens with RSL hooked up you might get main-reserve entanglement... . If thats the true, why do other manufacturers still install it on the LEFT riser??? And, for the sake of discussion, let's just assume that all rigs are built for right-handed people (hackey sack on the right side) and that risers can still break. Any other pros and cons??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #2 December 10, 2003 I just found some answers here... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=411246#411246 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=412365#412365 Any other comments??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #3 December 10, 2003 If you're working with a back-pinned design (ie- a pop top design), it's easier to put a break in the hard housing and route a short RSL lanyard on the left. It would be pretty hard (read - unprotected or unsafe) to bring it from the right side, across the yoke, to the left side...if you think about it. Of course, one reason for a right handed RSL on Tandem Rigs is so that you can get a reserve out from either side of the rig. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #4 December 10, 2003 The RWS RSL design also seems to lend it's self to making placement of the RSL on the Right easier. Witht he RWS design, the RSL has the reserve pin conected directly to it, while the reserve ripcord ends in a special fitting that loops around the pin. Many other manufacture's designs have a standard reserve pin at the end of the reserve ripcord, and a lanyared with a small ring that encircles the ripcord cable some 2-5 inches from the pin. Still others design a "break" in the housing for the rip cord, and place their ring, or lanyard there.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #5 December 10, 2003 Attached is a picture of Javelin container with the RSL attached to the RIGHT riser. I think Sunpath changed their design later on to the LEFT riser. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #6 December 10, 2003 QuoteWitht he RWS design, the RSL has the reserve pin conected directly to it, while the reserve ripcord ends in a special fitting that loops around the pin. This can be seen on page 32 of this manual: http://www.relativeworkshop.com/pdf_files/09354.pdf Also, page 32 states that guide RSL guide ring (I know most manufacturers install one or even two guide rings - see attached picture) was "never really necessary". But without RSL guide ring, isn't it possible that the RSL would be pulled at the extreme angle (like towards BOC pouch), causing the reserve pin to bend? I though that's why other rigs have RSL guide rings - to direct the pull force in line with the reserve pin. And I am not even talking about SkyHook, but normal RSL. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #7 December 10, 2003 QuoteAlso, page 32 states that guide RSL guide ring (I know most manufacturers install one or even two guide rings - see attached picture) was "never really necessary". But without RSL guide ring, isn't it possible that the RSL would be pulled at the extreme angle (like towards BOC pouch), causing the reserve pin to bend? I though that's why other rigs have RSL guide rings - to direct the pull force in line with the reserve pin. I seem to remeber someone telling me the guide rings prevent the RSL ring from slipping under the end of the housing, binding the reserve ripcord cable, and potentialy causing a hard/no pull scenario. Of cours the RWS version does not have this problem.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #8 December 10, 2003 QuoteI seem to remeber someone telling me the guide rings prevent the RSL ring from slipping under the end of the housing, binding the reserve ripcord cable, and potentialy causing a hard/no pull scenario. That's the idea, as I understand it, but a properly secured hard housing isn't going to allow a ring to slip under it. Even if it did, there is no way it would stay put while you went back into freefall. Try it and see for yourself. Just remember, you can fail anything on a bench in a static environment, but the real world is totally different than a bench test! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base283 0 #9 December 10, 2003 Is this a typo? “One argument I heard (from Bill Booth) is that all broken risers he saw had been the right-side ” [So] “Vector installs RSL on the RIGHT riser”. Or am I the only one to misunderstand your statement. Otherwise, I think the debate about which side had/has a lot to do with the path of the cutaway cables, right vs. left. The right goes pretty much directly straight through the straight housing and to the riser whereas the left side makes a 360° turn possibly causing some differential loop clearing times as the left cutaway cable compresses the inside turn of the cable housing 360 under load. But BB knows a lot about this system .... Hope this helps Take care, space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #10 December 10, 2003 QuoteIs this a typo? “One argument I heard (from Bill Booth) is that all broken risers he saw had been the right-side ” [So] “Vector installs RSL on the RIGHT riser”. Yes, it was a typo. Ooops! . I corrected it in the original post. Thanks for catching it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #11 December 10, 2003 Right, the left riser seems more likely to be the one to break since skydiver pull with their right hand (well almost all) and tend to drop their left shoulder, loading the left riser more than the right. I still like having a guide ring for an RSL. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #12 December 10, 2003 Static line guide rings are a relic from the days of pin-through-cone main static line rigs, where they were absolutely necessary. The pin the Vector RSL pulls directly is a "curved" pin in a soft loop, so no guide ring is necessary. I just put it there so I wouldn't have to explain why I didn't put it there. Before the Skyhook, the RSL guide ring did no harm. But with the Skyhook, there is a chance some careless rigger would run the Skyhook lanyard (as well as the ripcord) through the guide ring. The Skyhook would then try to pull the entire bagged reserve canopy through that tiny little ring, resulting in a broken Skyhook lanyard (but an otherwise normal reserve deployment). That's why I removed it on Skyhook installations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites betzilla 56 #13 December 11, 2003 QuoteAttached is a picture of Javelin container with the RSL attached to the RIGHT riser. I think Sunpath changed their design later on to the LEFT riser. That photo shows the guide rings over on the LEFT side, where SunPath normally puts them. My question about the photo is, why is the RSL lanyard on the right when the set up is on the left? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KellyF 16 #14 December 11, 2003 QuoteBut without RSL guide ring, isn't it possible that the RSL would be pulled at the extreme angle (like towards BOC pouch), causing the reserve pin to bend? I though that's why other rigs have RSL guide rings - to direct the pull force in line with the reserve pin. Keep in mind that when an RSL gets used, you will generally be suspended from the main risers (a bag lock would at the most still have you face to earth), so the likelyhood of the RSL pulling more than perpendicular to the path of the pin is pretty slim. Then add in the fact that most reserve pincover flaps have tuck tabs on the side of the flap that will help direct the RSL and you can see that the guide rings may actually be unnecessary. We still install one on our rigs, though Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #15 December 11, 2003 QuoteWe still install one on our rigs, though One is probably a good idea, but two rings, IMO, is a bad idea. We had two separate incidents here (years ago) on Student Javs (two guide rings). The students cutaway and pulled the reserve...and the RSL "lanyard" ring lodged against the pin, which happened to be anchored on each side by the two rings on the res. flap. This resulted in the main towing by the RSL lanyard. Both events ended uneventfully, but it's scary stuff.... If you're going to have two rings, they need to be spaced far enough apart so that there is no way the pin can be in contact with both rings at once. Better yet, be sure your hard housing is anchored and go with one ring (also far enough away not to anchor the pin opposite the housing end! ). "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZag 0 #16 December 12, 2003 Now I never thought of that scenario. Seems to be a timing issue, but nevertheless another thing that 'can' go wrong. Glad I clicked on this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #17 December 12, 2003 It's only happened one other time that I'm aware of. But the point is, there is no benefit lost by either removing the top ring or spreading the rings out...so why leave it the way it is (with the possibility of failure)? I've brought this up with Sunpath before, but they didn't seem to think it was enough of an issue. Actually, I should correct myself, they thought that positive of having the second ring "far outweighed the downside of a possible failure." As I've said before, one or two failures doesn't necessarily constitute a failed design...but if you could keep all the "positives" of your design by modifying it some and at the same time reduce a possible "negative", why wouldn't you? Seems simple to me... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #18 December 14, 2003 The "guide ring" on a Vector-type RSL, performs a completely different function than the ring(s) on a Javelin-type RSL. So don't go cutting rings off any RSL system without specific instructions from that rig's manufacturer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #19 February 7, 2004 Sunpath, did in fact change the location of the snap-shackle to the left side of the harness-container and routing the Lanyard over the left shoulder. Am I seeing the picture you supplied correctly, that the RSL-Lanyard is routed under the Cypres cable? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #20 February 7, 2004 Am I seeing the picture you supplied correctly, that the RSL-Lanyard is routed under the Cypres cable? Chuck >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since both the RSL and the Cypres cable are black, it is difficult to tell if the RSL is routed under the Cypres cable. If it is routed under the Cypres cable, that would be a rigger error. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #21 February 7, 2004 10-4! In looking closely, it really looks as though the lanyard 'is' routed under the Cypres cable. I realize, it is all black, the flap and lanyard, both. I looked real closely, again, at the picture. The lanyard goes from the cable, to the right, makes a 45degree angle up and under the Cypres cable. Do you suppose, that is why Sunpath moved it all to the left? To avoid such a situation, because it has happened? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
skydiverek 63 #2 December 10, 2003 I just found some answers here... http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=411246#411246 http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=412365#412365 Any other comments??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #3 December 10, 2003 If you're working with a back-pinned design (ie- a pop top design), it's easier to put a break in the hard housing and route a short RSL lanyard on the left. It would be pretty hard (read - unprotected or unsafe) to bring it from the right side, across the yoke, to the left side...if you think about it. Of course, one reason for a right handed RSL on Tandem Rigs is so that you can get a reserve out from either side of the rig. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #4 December 10, 2003 The RWS RSL design also seems to lend it's self to making placement of the RSL on the Right easier. Witht he RWS design, the RSL has the reserve pin conected directly to it, while the reserve ripcord ends in a special fitting that loops around the pin. Many other manufacture's designs have a standard reserve pin at the end of the reserve ripcord, and a lanyared with a small ring that encircles the ripcord cable some 2-5 inches from the pin. Still others design a "break" in the housing for the rip cord, and place their ring, or lanyard there.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #5 December 10, 2003 Attached is a picture of Javelin container with the RSL attached to the RIGHT riser. I think Sunpath changed their design later on to the LEFT riser. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #6 December 10, 2003 QuoteWitht he RWS design, the RSL has the reserve pin conected directly to it, while the reserve ripcord ends in a special fitting that loops around the pin. This can be seen on page 32 of this manual: http://www.relativeworkshop.com/pdf_files/09354.pdf Also, page 32 states that guide RSL guide ring (I know most manufacturers install one or even two guide rings - see attached picture) was "never really necessary". But without RSL guide ring, isn't it possible that the RSL would be pulled at the extreme angle (like towards BOC pouch), causing the reserve pin to bend? I though that's why other rigs have RSL guide rings - to direct the pull force in line with the reserve pin. And I am not even talking about SkyHook, but normal RSL. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #7 December 10, 2003 QuoteAlso, page 32 states that guide RSL guide ring (I know most manufacturers install one or even two guide rings - see attached picture) was "never really necessary". But without RSL guide ring, isn't it possible that the RSL would be pulled at the extreme angle (like towards BOC pouch), causing the reserve pin to bend? I though that's why other rigs have RSL guide rings - to direct the pull force in line with the reserve pin. I seem to remeber someone telling me the guide rings prevent the RSL ring from slipping under the end of the housing, binding the reserve ripcord cable, and potentialy causing a hard/no pull scenario. Of cours the RWS version does not have this problem.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #8 December 10, 2003 QuoteI seem to remeber someone telling me the guide rings prevent the RSL ring from slipping under the end of the housing, binding the reserve ripcord cable, and potentialy causing a hard/no pull scenario. That's the idea, as I understand it, but a properly secured hard housing isn't going to allow a ring to slip under it. Even if it did, there is no way it would stay put while you went back into freefall. Try it and see for yourself. Just remember, you can fail anything on a bench in a static environment, but the real world is totally different than a bench test! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base283 0 #9 December 10, 2003 Is this a typo? “One argument I heard (from Bill Booth) is that all broken risers he saw had been the right-side ” [So] “Vector installs RSL on the RIGHT riser”. Or am I the only one to misunderstand your statement. Otherwise, I think the debate about which side had/has a lot to do with the path of the cutaway cables, right vs. left. The right goes pretty much directly straight through the straight housing and to the riser whereas the left side makes a 360° turn possibly causing some differential loop clearing times as the left cutaway cable compresses the inside turn of the cable housing 360 under load. But BB knows a lot about this system .... Hope this helps Take care, space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #10 December 10, 2003 QuoteIs this a typo? “One argument I heard (from Bill Booth) is that all broken risers he saw had been the right-side ” [So] “Vector installs RSL on the RIGHT riser”. Yes, it was a typo. Ooops! . I corrected it in the original post. Thanks for catching it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #11 December 10, 2003 Right, the left riser seems more likely to be the one to break since skydiver pull with their right hand (well almost all) and tend to drop their left shoulder, loading the left riser more than the right. I still like having a guide ring for an RSL. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #12 December 10, 2003 Static line guide rings are a relic from the days of pin-through-cone main static line rigs, where they were absolutely necessary. The pin the Vector RSL pulls directly is a "curved" pin in a soft loop, so no guide ring is necessary. I just put it there so I wouldn't have to explain why I didn't put it there. Before the Skyhook, the RSL guide ring did no harm. But with the Skyhook, there is a chance some careless rigger would run the Skyhook lanyard (as well as the ripcord) through the guide ring. The Skyhook would then try to pull the entire bagged reserve canopy through that tiny little ring, resulting in a broken Skyhook lanyard (but an otherwise normal reserve deployment). That's why I removed it on Skyhook installations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites betzilla 56 #13 December 11, 2003 QuoteAttached is a picture of Javelin container with the RSL attached to the RIGHT riser. I think Sunpath changed their design later on to the LEFT riser. That photo shows the guide rings over on the LEFT side, where SunPath normally puts them. My question about the photo is, why is the RSL lanyard on the right when the set up is on the left? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KellyF 16 #14 December 11, 2003 QuoteBut without RSL guide ring, isn't it possible that the RSL would be pulled at the extreme angle (like towards BOC pouch), causing the reserve pin to bend? I though that's why other rigs have RSL guide rings - to direct the pull force in line with the reserve pin. Keep in mind that when an RSL gets used, you will generally be suspended from the main risers (a bag lock would at the most still have you face to earth), so the likelyhood of the RSL pulling more than perpendicular to the path of the pin is pretty slim. Then add in the fact that most reserve pincover flaps have tuck tabs on the side of the flap that will help direct the RSL and you can see that the guide rings may actually be unnecessary. We still install one on our rigs, though Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #15 December 11, 2003 QuoteWe still install one on our rigs, though One is probably a good idea, but two rings, IMO, is a bad idea. We had two separate incidents here (years ago) on Student Javs (two guide rings). The students cutaway and pulled the reserve...and the RSL "lanyard" ring lodged against the pin, which happened to be anchored on each side by the two rings on the res. flap. This resulted in the main towing by the RSL lanyard. Both events ended uneventfully, but it's scary stuff.... If you're going to have two rings, they need to be spaced far enough apart so that there is no way the pin can be in contact with both rings at once. Better yet, be sure your hard housing is anchored and go with one ring (also far enough away not to anchor the pin opposite the housing end! ). "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZag 0 #16 December 12, 2003 Now I never thought of that scenario. Seems to be a timing issue, but nevertheless another thing that 'can' go wrong. Glad I clicked on this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #17 December 12, 2003 It's only happened one other time that I'm aware of. But the point is, there is no benefit lost by either removing the top ring or spreading the rings out...so why leave it the way it is (with the possibility of failure)? I've brought this up with Sunpath before, but they didn't seem to think it was enough of an issue. Actually, I should correct myself, they thought that positive of having the second ring "far outweighed the downside of a possible failure." As I've said before, one or two failures doesn't necessarily constitute a failed design...but if you could keep all the "positives" of your design by modifying it some and at the same time reduce a possible "negative", why wouldn't you? Seems simple to me... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #18 December 14, 2003 The "guide ring" on a Vector-type RSL, performs a completely different function than the ring(s) on a Javelin-type RSL. So don't go cutting rings off any RSL system without specific instructions from that rig's manufacturer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #19 February 7, 2004 Sunpath, did in fact change the location of the snap-shackle to the left side of the harness-container and routing the Lanyard over the left shoulder. Am I seeing the picture you supplied correctly, that the RSL-Lanyard is routed under the Cypres cable? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #20 February 7, 2004 Am I seeing the picture you supplied correctly, that the RSL-Lanyard is routed under the Cypres cable? Chuck >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since both the RSL and the Cypres cable are black, it is difficult to tell if the RSL is routed under the Cypres cable. If it is routed under the Cypres cable, that would be a rigger error. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #21 February 7, 2004 10-4! In looking closely, it really looks as though the lanyard 'is' routed under the Cypres cable. I realize, it is all black, the flap and lanyard, both. I looked real closely, again, at the picture. The lanyard goes from the cable, to the right, makes a 45degree angle up and under the Cypres cable. Do you suppose, that is why Sunpath moved it all to the left? To avoid such a situation, because it has happened? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
rigging65 0 #3 December 10, 2003 If you're working with a back-pinned design (ie- a pop top design), it's easier to put a break in the hard housing and route a short RSL lanyard on the left. It would be pretty hard (read - unprotected or unsafe) to bring it from the right side, across the yoke, to the left side...if you think about it. Of course, one reason for a right handed RSL on Tandem Rigs is so that you can get a reserve out from either side of the rig. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #4 December 10, 2003 The RWS RSL design also seems to lend it's self to making placement of the RSL on the Right easier. Witht he RWS design, the RSL has the reserve pin conected directly to it, while the reserve ripcord ends in a special fitting that loops around the pin. Many other manufacture's designs have a standard reserve pin at the end of the reserve ripcord, and a lanyared with a small ring that encircles the ripcord cable some 2-5 inches from the pin. Still others design a "break" in the housing for the rip cord, and place their ring, or lanyard there.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #5 December 10, 2003 Attached is a picture of Javelin container with the RSL attached to the RIGHT riser. I think Sunpath changed their design later on to the LEFT riser. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #6 December 10, 2003 QuoteWitht he RWS design, the RSL has the reserve pin conected directly to it, while the reserve ripcord ends in a special fitting that loops around the pin. This can be seen on page 32 of this manual: http://www.relativeworkshop.com/pdf_files/09354.pdf Also, page 32 states that guide RSL guide ring (I know most manufacturers install one or even two guide rings - see attached picture) was "never really necessary". But without RSL guide ring, isn't it possible that the RSL would be pulled at the extreme angle (like towards BOC pouch), causing the reserve pin to bend? I though that's why other rigs have RSL guide rings - to direct the pull force in line with the reserve pin. And I am not even talking about SkyHook, but normal RSL. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #7 December 10, 2003 QuoteAlso, page 32 states that guide RSL guide ring (I know most manufacturers install one or even two guide rings - see attached picture) was "never really necessary". But without RSL guide ring, isn't it possible that the RSL would be pulled at the extreme angle (like towards BOC pouch), causing the reserve pin to bend? I though that's why other rigs have RSL guide rings - to direct the pull force in line with the reserve pin. I seem to remeber someone telling me the guide rings prevent the RSL ring from slipping under the end of the housing, binding the reserve ripcord cable, and potentialy causing a hard/no pull scenario. Of cours the RWS version does not have this problem.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #8 December 10, 2003 QuoteI seem to remeber someone telling me the guide rings prevent the RSL ring from slipping under the end of the housing, binding the reserve ripcord cable, and potentialy causing a hard/no pull scenario. That's the idea, as I understand it, but a properly secured hard housing isn't going to allow a ring to slip under it. Even if it did, there is no way it would stay put while you went back into freefall. Try it and see for yourself. Just remember, you can fail anything on a bench in a static environment, but the real world is totally different than a bench test! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base283 0 #9 December 10, 2003 Is this a typo? “One argument I heard (from Bill Booth) is that all broken risers he saw had been the right-side ” [So] “Vector installs RSL on the RIGHT riser”. Or am I the only one to misunderstand your statement. Otherwise, I think the debate about which side had/has a lot to do with the path of the cutaway cables, right vs. left. The right goes pretty much directly straight through the straight housing and to the riser whereas the left side makes a 360° turn possibly causing some differential loop clearing times as the left cutaway cable compresses the inside turn of the cable housing 360 under load. But BB knows a lot about this system .... Hope this helps Take care, space Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #10 December 10, 2003 QuoteIs this a typo? “One argument I heard (from Bill Booth) is that all broken risers he saw had been the right-side ” [So] “Vector installs RSL on the RIGHT riser”. Yes, it was a typo. Ooops! . I corrected it in the original post. Thanks for catching it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #11 December 10, 2003 Right, the left riser seems more likely to be the one to break since skydiver pull with their right hand (well almost all) and tend to drop their left shoulder, loading the left riser more than the right. I still like having a guide ring for an RSL. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #12 December 10, 2003 Static line guide rings are a relic from the days of pin-through-cone main static line rigs, where they were absolutely necessary. The pin the Vector RSL pulls directly is a "curved" pin in a soft loop, so no guide ring is necessary. I just put it there so I wouldn't have to explain why I didn't put it there. Before the Skyhook, the RSL guide ring did no harm. But with the Skyhook, there is a chance some careless rigger would run the Skyhook lanyard (as well as the ripcord) through the guide ring. The Skyhook would then try to pull the entire bagged reserve canopy through that tiny little ring, resulting in a broken Skyhook lanyard (but an otherwise normal reserve deployment). That's why I removed it on Skyhook installations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites betzilla 56 #13 December 11, 2003 QuoteAttached is a picture of Javelin container with the RSL attached to the RIGHT riser. I think Sunpath changed their design later on to the LEFT riser. That photo shows the guide rings over on the LEFT side, where SunPath normally puts them. My question about the photo is, why is the RSL lanyard on the right when the set up is on the left? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KellyF 16 #14 December 11, 2003 QuoteBut without RSL guide ring, isn't it possible that the RSL would be pulled at the extreme angle (like towards BOC pouch), causing the reserve pin to bend? I though that's why other rigs have RSL guide rings - to direct the pull force in line with the reserve pin. Keep in mind that when an RSL gets used, you will generally be suspended from the main risers (a bag lock would at the most still have you face to earth), so the likelyhood of the RSL pulling more than perpendicular to the path of the pin is pretty slim. Then add in the fact that most reserve pincover flaps have tuck tabs on the side of the flap that will help direct the RSL and you can see that the guide rings may actually be unnecessary. We still install one on our rigs, though Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #15 December 11, 2003 QuoteWe still install one on our rigs, though One is probably a good idea, but two rings, IMO, is a bad idea. We had two separate incidents here (years ago) on Student Javs (two guide rings). The students cutaway and pulled the reserve...and the RSL "lanyard" ring lodged against the pin, which happened to be anchored on each side by the two rings on the res. flap. This resulted in the main towing by the RSL lanyard. Both events ended uneventfully, but it's scary stuff.... If you're going to have two rings, they need to be spaced far enough apart so that there is no way the pin can be in contact with both rings at once. Better yet, be sure your hard housing is anchored and go with one ring (also far enough away not to anchor the pin opposite the housing end! ). "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZag 0 #16 December 12, 2003 Now I never thought of that scenario. Seems to be a timing issue, but nevertheless another thing that 'can' go wrong. Glad I clicked on this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #17 December 12, 2003 It's only happened one other time that I'm aware of. But the point is, there is no benefit lost by either removing the top ring or spreading the rings out...so why leave it the way it is (with the possibility of failure)? I've brought this up with Sunpath before, but they didn't seem to think it was enough of an issue. Actually, I should correct myself, they thought that positive of having the second ring "far outweighed the downside of a possible failure." As I've said before, one or two failures doesn't necessarily constitute a failed design...but if you could keep all the "positives" of your design by modifying it some and at the same time reduce a possible "negative", why wouldn't you? Seems simple to me... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #18 December 14, 2003 The "guide ring" on a Vector-type RSL, performs a completely different function than the ring(s) on a Javelin-type RSL. So don't go cutting rings off any RSL system without specific instructions from that rig's manufacturer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #19 February 7, 2004 Sunpath, did in fact change the location of the snap-shackle to the left side of the harness-container and routing the Lanyard over the left shoulder. Am I seeing the picture you supplied correctly, that the RSL-Lanyard is routed under the Cypres cable? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #20 February 7, 2004 Am I seeing the picture you supplied correctly, that the RSL-Lanyard is routed under the Cypres cable? Chuck >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since both the RSL and the Cypres cable are black, it is difficult to tell if the RSL is routed under the Cypres cable. If it is routed under the Cypres cable, that would be a rigger error. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #21 February 7, 2004 10-4! In looking closely, it really looks as though the lanyard 'is' routed under the Cypres cable. I realize, it is all black, the flap and lanyard, both. I looked real closely, again, at the picture. The lanyard goes from the cable, to the right, makes a 45degree angle up and under the Cypres cable. Do you suppose, that is why Sunpath moved it all to the left? To avoid such a situation, because it has happened? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Hooknswoop 19 #11 December 10, 2003 Right, the left riser seems more likely to be the one to break since skydiver pull with their right hand (well almost all) and tend to drop their left shoulder, loading the left riser more than the right. I still like having a guide ring for an RSL. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #12 December 10, 2003 Static line guide rings are a relic from the days of pin-through-cone main static line rigs, where they were absolutely necessary. The pin the Vector RSL pulls directly is a "curved" pin in a soft loop, so no guide ring is necessary. I just put it there so I wouldn't have to explain why I didn't put it there. Before the Skyhook, the RSL guide ring did no harm. But with the Skyhook, there is a chance some careless rigger would run the Skyhook lanyard (as well as the ripcord) through the guide ring. The Skyhook would then try to pull the entire bagged reserve canopy through that tiny little ring, resulting in a broken Skyhook lanyard (but an otherwise normal reserve deployment). That's why I removed it on Skyhook installations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #13 December 11, 2003 QuoteAttached is a picture of Javelin container with the RSL attached to the RIGHT riser. I think Sunpath changed their design later on to the LEFT riser. That photo shows the guide rings over on the LEFT side, where SunPath normally puts them. My question about the photo is, why is the RSL lanyard on the right when the set up is on the left? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #14 December 11, 2003 QuoteBut without RSL guide ring, isn't it possible that the RSL would be pulled at the extreme angle (like towards BOC pouch), causing the reserve pin to bend? I though that's why other rigs have RSL guide rings - to direct the pull force in line with the reserve pin. Keep in mind that when an RSL gets used, you will generally be suspended from the main risers (a bag lock would at the most still have you face to earth), so the likelyhood of the RSL pulling more than perpendicular to the path of the pin is pretty slim. Then add in the fact that most reserve pincover flaps have tuck tabs on the side of the flap that will help direct the RSL and you can see that the guide rings may actually be unnecessary. We still install one on our rigs, though Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #15 December 11, 2003 QuoteWe still install one on our rigs, though One is probably a good idea, but two rings, IMO, is a bad idea. We had two separate incidents here (years ago) on Student Javs (two guide rings). The students cutaway and pulled the reserve...and the RSL "lanyard" ring lodged against the pin, which happened to be anchored on each side by the two rings on the res. flap. This resulted in the main towing by the RSL lanyard. Both events ended uneventfully, but it's scary stuff.... If you're going to have two rings, they need to be spaced far enough apart so that there is no way the pin can be in contact with both rings at once. Better yet, be sure your hard housing is anchored and go with one ring (also far enough away not to anchor the pin opposite the housing end! ). "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZag 0 #16 December 12, 2003 Now I never thought of that scenario. Seems to be a timing issue, but nevertheless another thing that 'can' go wrong. Glad I clicked on this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #17 December 12, 2003 It's only happened one other time that I'm aware of. But the point is, there is no benefit lost by either removing the top ring or spreading the rings out...so why leave it the way it is (with the possibility of failure)? I've brought this up with Sunpath before, but they didn't seem to think it was enough of an issue. Actually, I should correct myself, they thought that positive of having the second ring "far outweighed the downside of a possible failure." As I've said before, one or two failures doesn't necessarily constitute a failed design...but if you could keep all the "positives" of your design by modifying it some and at the same time reduce a possible "negative", why wouldn't you? Seems simple to me... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #18 December 14, 2003 The "guide ring" on a Vector-type RSL, performs a completely different function than the ring(s) on a Javelin-type RSL. So don't go cutting rings off any RSL system without specific instructions from that rig's manufacturer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #19 February 7, 2004 Sunpath, did in fact change the location of the snap-shackle to the left side of the harness-container and routing the Lanyard over the left shoulder. Am I seeing the picture you supplied correctly, that the RSL-Lanyard is routed under the Cypres cable? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #20 February 7, 2004 Am I seeing the picture you supplied correctly, that the RSL-Lanyard is routed under the Cypres cable? Chuck >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since both the RSL and the Cypres cable are black, it is difficult to tell if the RSL is routed under the Cypres cable. If it is routed under the Cypres cable, that would be a rigger error. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #21 February 7, 2004 10-4! In looking closely, it really looks as though the lanyard 'is' routed under the Cypres cable. I realize, it is all black, the flap and lanyard, both. I looked real closely, again, at the picture. The lanyard goes from the cable, to the right, makes a 45degree angle up and under the Cypres cable. Do you suppose, that is why Sunpath moved it all to the left? To avoid such a situation, because it has happened? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
rigging65 0 #15 December 11, 2003 QuoteWe still install one on our rigs, though One is probably a good idea, but two rings, IMO, is a bad idea. We had two separate incidents here (years ago) on Student Javs (two guide rings). The students cutaway and pulled the reserve...and the RSL "lanyard" ring lodged against the pin, which happened to be anchored on each side by the two rings on the res. flap. This resulted in the main towing by the RSL lanyard. Both events ended uneventfully, but it's scary stuff.... If you're going to have two rings, they need to be spaced far enough apart so that there is no way the pin can be in contact with both rings at once. Better yet, be sure your hard housing is anchored and go with one ring (also far enough away not to anchor the pin opposite the housing end! ). "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZag 0 #16 December 12, 2003 Now I never thought of that scenario. Seems to be a timing issue, but nevertheless another thing that 'can' go wrong. Glad I clicked on this thread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rigging65 0 #17 December 12, 2003 It's only happened one other time that I'm aware of. But the point is, there is no benefit lost by either removing the top ring or spreading the rings out...so why leave it the way it is (with the possibility of failure)? I've brought this up with Sunpath before, but they didn't seem to think it was enough of an issue. Actually, I should correct myself, they thought that positive of having the second ring "far outweighed the downside of a possible failure." As I've said before, one or two failures doesn't necessarily constitute a failed design...but if you could keep all the "positives" of your design by modifying it some and at the same time reduce a possible "negative", why wouldn't you? Seems simple to me... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billbooth 10 #18 December 14, 2003 The "guide ring" on a Vector-type RSL, performs a completely different function than the ring(s) on a Javelin-type RSL. So don't go cutting rings off any RSL system without specific instructions from that rig's manufacturer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #19 February 7, 2004 Sunpath, did in fact change the location of the snap-shackle to the left side of the harness-container and routing the Lanyard over the left shoulder. Am I seeing the picture you supplied correctly, that the RSL-Lanyard is routed under the Cypres cable? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #20 February 7, 2004 Am I seeing the picture you supplied correctly, that the RSL-Lanyard is routed under the Cypres cable? Chuck >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since both the RSL and the Cypres cable are black, it is difficult to tell if the RSL is routed under the Cypres cable. If it is routed under the Cypres cable, that would be a rigger error. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #17 December 12, 2003 It's only happened one other time that I'm aware of. But the point is, there is no benefit lost by either removing the top ring or spreading the rings out...so why leave it the way it is (with the possibility of failure)? I've brought this up with Sunpath before, but they didn't seem to think it was enough of an issue. Actually, I should correct myself, they thought that positive of having the second ring "far outweighed the downside of a possible failure." As I've said before, one or two failures doesn't necessarily constitute a failed design...but if you could keep all the "positives" of your design by modifying it some and at the same time reduce a possible "negative", why wouldn't you? Seems simple to me... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #18 December 14, 2003 The "guide ring" on a Vector-type RSL, performs a completely different function than the ring(s) on a Javelin-type RSL. So don't go cutting rings off any RSL system without specific instructions from that rig's manufacturer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #19 February 7, 2004 Sunpath, did in fact change the location of the snap-shackle to the left side of the harness-container and routing the Lanyard over the left shoulder. Am I seeing the picture you supplied correctly, that the RSL-Lanyard is routed under the Cypres cable? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #20 February 7, 2004 Am I seeing the picture you supplied correctly, that the RSL-Lanyard is routed under the Cypres cable? Chuck >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since both the RSL and the Cypres cable are black, it is difficult to tell if the RSL is routed under the Cypres cable. If it is routed under the Cypres cable, that would be a rigger error. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #21 February 7, 2004 10-4! In looking closely, it really looks as though the lanyard 'is' routed under the Cypres cable. I realize, it is all black, the flap and lanyard, both. I looked real closely, again, at the picture. The lanyard goes from the cable, to the right, makes a 45degree angle up and under the Cypres cable. Do you suppose, that is why Sunpath moved it all to the left? To avoid such a situation, because it has happened? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
