Raven Dash-M Reserves

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

So I have a question for all the riggers (or anyone else with experience with this topic) out there ... this one has sort of been lingering in the back of my mind for a while now. My Reserve canopy is the Micro Raven Dash-M2. Its DOM was October 1999. It is 135 sq. feet, the same as my main. My body weight is about 125 and my exit weight is about 145 (without wearing any additional weight)

I have never used my Reserve (knocking on wood) but I have overheard some horror stories about these canopies and have heard people say things like, those Raven Dash-M Reserves "blow up on people" are unreliable, collapse, etc. I am not in any way bashing Raven Reserves because I don't know so I hope no one takes offense to me posting this but ... I would like my concerns either put to rest for good by getting some "You're good" feedback or people to just tell me, get rid of the thing.

I had my rigger a while back check mine out. He told me he was checking for a certain type of reinforcement stitch or something (???) and said that if my canopy has this stitching I am okay. He said that some canopies were being recalled due to the stitch failure or something which caused the canopies to tear?

Also, please excuse me if I don't have the terminology right, I am not a rigger (at least not yet).

I am not sure if OK is good enough when it comes to my Reserve. I want to hear, Yeah that thing will save your life if you ever need it to without a doubt.

So I started to relax a bit over it all when I found out that my canopy was not manufactured during the recall period, but I have since heard other skydivers say things like I would get rid of that thing and get a PD Reserve, PD makes the best.

So my questions I guess are:

1) What determines the "best" Reserve canopy or is it just a matter of personal preference/experience like a main

2) Do you think PD makes a better Reserve canopy than the Precision MicroRaven

I want to feel comfortable in jumping gear that is airworthy and safe, especially my Reserve and I have been sort of uncomfortable with that lingering question like, I haven't used it yet, is it going to work? It's not something I consider to be worth the risk.
If you prefer to PM me your thoughts rather than posting openly in the forums that is okay too.

Thanks and blue skies

[linestretch 0]

A very good debate is gonna come from this one. If I had a choice, I would NOT get a raven only due to the stories, and seeing others flare their raven's/micro ravens and having them collapse on landing. The question on the Dash-M's is a bar-tack on the A and B line attachment points. After a fatality or injury..or both (I'm pretty sure this was the cause of the service bulletin), they somehow decided that adding an additional bar tack to all the A and B line attachments on the canopy would make it better. I think "skydiving" had an article about the pull test and the conclusion wasn't really all that much better. Anyway, I have never jumped one, but just about everyone (not all mind you) I know that has had to jump one wasn't happy with the landing. They are easy to stall out on landing, they don't have a deep flare quality to them. A friend of mine broke her back from flaring and having the canopy collapse on her and dumping her on her ass/back. Granted, these jumpers probably should have practiced the flare up high. But other than all of that, the reserve will do you just fine. They are proven, and have saved a lot of lives. But, you should listen to everyone's input here, and make your own decision.

good luck

here is a link to a past thread about the service bulletin.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=66387;search_string=raven%20dash%20m;#66387

my pics & stuff!

[NoShitThereIWas 0]

Quote: "But other than all of that, the reserve will do you just fine." LOL, this reminds me of those commercials for like Flonase or whatever. It's like you can take this drug and it will help you with your post nasal drip but in the meantime, the side effects are severe diahrrea (spelling?), nausea, night sweats, headache, fatigue, breaking out in hives, etc.

Well, I guess this isn't really a laughing matter, after reading most of the posts in that thread and also being a camera flyer, I am definitely now even more worried about my Reserve. After reading up about PD Reserves on their website, it looks like the best canopy for me would be a PD 126 reserve.

Thanks Linestretch, that was a very helpful thread to read.

Roy Bacon: "Elvises, light your fires."

Sting: "Be yourself no matter what they say."

[Jib 0]

Clicky: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=66387;search_string=raven%20dash%20m;#66387

Also see: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=509270#509270

--------------------------------------------------
the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[skybytch 273]

You're loading that reserve light enough that I doubt you'd experience any problems should you need to use it. The canopies that "blew up" were loaded close to or beyond the mfr's recommended maximum. All of the people I know who've had "bad" landings under Ravens were loading them quite a bit heavier than you load yours - and I've heard of people having bad landings under loaded up Tempos too.

If you have to use it do some practice flares and find out where the canopy stalls before you land. As the loading increases the stall point is higher - which means you may not want to flare it as far as you do your main.

If you're going to be loading a reserve over about 1.2ish, then I'd say a PD (or other more modern and well reinforced design) would be a better choice than a DashM. At lighter wingloadings imho pretty much any reserve on the market is going to do what you want it to do when you need it.

[riggerrob 643]

So my questions I guess are:

1) What determines the "best" Reserve canopy or is it just a matter of personal preference/experience like a main

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The "best" reserves are the most recent generation: PD, Precision's A-Max, Parachutes de France Techno and Aerodyne "Smart." These are the first generation of reserves designed to be loaded much more than 1 pound per square foot. They can be identified by the span-wise reinforcement tapes across the bottom skin.

Most of the people who had problems Ravens over-loaded them. Even the guys at the Precision factory admit that Ravens fly like $#% when you load them much beyond 1.3.

The only torn Raven that I have ever seen was a Raven-M 282 that was overweight, over-speed and unstable when he scared his Cypres. Make that many mistakes and you are lucky to be alive! Period!

And yes there is a lot of personal preference involved in chosing reserves. Often, the "best" reserve is whatever model your local dealer has in stock.
For example, one major dealer bad-mouth Tempo reserves for years, but when I challenged her to quote specific accidents and dates, she shut up!
I suspect that her real problem was that the company that manufactured Tempos would not give her a big enough dealer discount.
Hee! Hee!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

2) Do you think PD makes a better Reserve canopy than the Precision Micro Raven

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, and that is because PD reserves are designed to handle wing-loadings in the 1.5 range, whereas far too many skydivers operate Ravens outside the placarded limits.

If you insist on loading a reserve much more than one pound per square foot, you should buy a PD, Techno, Smart or A-Max.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I had my rigger a while back check mine out. He told me he was checking for a certain type of reinforcement stitch or something (???) and said that if my canopy has this stitching I am okay. He said that some canopies were being recalled due to the stitch failure or something which caused the canopies to tear?

If your reserve was made 3 OCT 96 and 12 APR 99, it is affected by the SB. Get rid of it. If it was made between 12 APR 99 and 31 OCT 99, it isn’t affected, but uses Type 3 tapes for the line attachment points instead of the type 1. Get rid of it.

If you are loading it more than 1:1, get rid of it. If you can afford it, get rid of it and get a PD reserve.

Quote

1) What determines the "best" Reserve canopy or is it just a matter of personal preference/experience like a main

Opening, flight, and landing characteristics of the reserve. Construction and re-enforcement of the reserve. Quality control and customer service in the event of a manufacturing defect.

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2) Do you think PD makes a better Reserve canopy than the Precision MicroRaven

Without a doubt, yes PD does make a better reserve. I have not seen, packed, nor flown the new Raven Max+ from PA, so I cannot form an opinion of it. I have owned and flown both a Micro-Raven 109-M (that was affected by the SB) and a PD-106R, and there is no comparison of the 2 reserves. The PD-R was a much superior reserve than the Raven.

Derek

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

You're loading that reserve light enough that I doubt you'd experience any problems should you need to use it. ... All of the people I know who've had "bad" landings under Ravens were loading them quite a bit heavier than you load yours

I watched a friend land under a Raven 150 @ 1:1, it collapsed, fortunately for her she was only inches off the ground. It scared her though.

I've got two rides on a Raven II, I've never had the thing collapse, quite the opposite, that canopy seems to have almost no flare, and a built in left hand turn.

I'm alive today because of my Raven but I've got a PD reserve sitting in my living room waiting for my new container.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[VectorBoy 0]

Jennifer, Don't worry you got a good product . At your wingloading you also have nothing to fear. I have a Dash-M 135. I was also worried based on those stories. I also personaly know a guy who had his dash-M blow up but live to tell about landing a barely landable, torn reserve. And have heard for years when asking about gear in general that its all good but when asking about reserves specifically that this brand flares better and that brand blows up.

Two months ago on my 135 dash-m all of my fears were put to rest. That 135 is GOOOOD babie!
Wonderful flare, no suprises in flight, it did its job nicely.

Problems with reserves:
They are F-111 ( this material has wonderful properties for reserve design) But if you remember most of us stopped flying f-111 in wingloads above 1:1 and went with ZP because at higher wingloadings above 1:1 ZP is a must. Well ZP canopies flare different than those made of F-111. Timing the flare on a loaded f-111 reserve is a little more important than on a similar loaded ZP sport canopy. Or an underloaded F-111 student barge. Which for most people was really their only exposure to F-111 flare timing. Timing is Even MORE important if you are overloading your reserve.
So now you are in an emergency situation on a canopy you have never flared before, maybe overloading it, maybe over a hostile landing area with very few outs that require excellent airskills and timing. See how things can stack against you quik? OK just for fun lets make it at night too.
One thing you can do to get some practice is to DEMO a reserve set up as a main and put a few jumps on it to learn the difference. A handful of hop & pops with a reserve will do wonders for your confidence and air skills, canopy accuracy too. The Very fine folks at PD do this at some boogies here and there. Take them up on it, its worth it to you. And then regardless of what brand you have don't overload it.

Then all you will have to worry about is being over a hostile landing area maybe at night

• Quote

[Kolla 0]

Brilliant idea from VectorBoy - demo a reserve!
Contact me at PD or fill out a form on our website (http://www.performancedesigns.com/demorequest.asp) to try a demo set up as main.

It was a bit intimidating for me the first time I tried it, but it really builds a lot of confidence - and then when you really need to use your reserve you know what to expect from it.

Blue ones,
Kolla

Blue Skies Magazine

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

at higher wingloadings above 1:1 ZP is a must.

Not true, My PD-106R landed very nicely loaded at 1.76 at over 5,000 ft MSL. My MR-109-M didn't. They are very different reserves. I have never heard of a PD coming apart. IN SB20011221r1, PA admits that the Raven-M was coming apart, even when it was within the max operating weight of the reserve. Then they required the customer to pay for the SB.

Derek

[VectorBoy 0]

Quote

Quote

at higher wingloadings above 1:1 ZP is a must.

Not true, My PD-106R landed very nicely loaded at 1.76 at over 5,000 ft MSL.

Quote

I'm talking about for everyday sport canopy purpose Derek. For a purpose of a reserve isn't F-111 a must?


My MR-109-M didn't. They are very different reserves.

I demo'ed A PD 143 as a reserve under Ideal conditions hop & pop with nobody in the target area after practicing a series of stalls, turns, braked turns and risering up high.
I landed my Dash-m 135 ( service bulletin effected) after a real emergency ( total) followed by having two out with an elliptical ( which I cuttaway )in a wingsuit and a landing without having enough time to cut away my leg wings. The fight and flare was just as good and the flare IMO was better on the dash-m. I had a softer landing and found no issues with the toggle stroke on the dash-m.
Now some might say that the prior experience on the PD paid off in having to land the Dash-m, maybe.
Both deployments were at terminal or less. If speed of deployment was an issue as in a premature HD freefly reserve deployment then I would like to see spanwise tapes in the bottom skin just like my main hasSome people choose to save money on a cheaper (used) to be hopefully used less reserve. Others don't get the cypres for their back-up rig or even their main rig. I know people that won't jump without a cypres but still have soft housings in there older Javs. I'm not talking the risers I'm talking the harness. Those are all personal decisions.
If you want to buy new gear the advice to get the new generation of anything can't be beat, all gear is getting better.
But I'm not going to tell someone to junk their much maligned already paid for perfectly functional reserve that flys and lands just fine. As long as you don't exceed the design limits.

• Quote

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I'm talking about for everyday sport canopy purpose Derek.

Sorry, I misread your post. After 200 jumps or so, F-111 isn’t up to the task of over 1:1 and maybe not even that. For he first 200 jump or so, F-111 holds up.

Quote

For a purpose of a reserve isn't F-111 a must?

I would recommend it. There is one reserve with a ZP top skin (Raven-MZ), but they don’t seem to have become very popular. I have packed one or two of them.

Quote

I demo'ed A PD 143 as a reserve under Ideal conditions hop & pop with nobody in the target area after practicing a series of stalls, turns, braked turns and risering up high.
I landed my Dash-m 135 ( service bulletin effected) after a real emergency ( total) followed by having two out with an elliptical ( which I cuttaway )in a wingsuit and a landing without having enough time to cut away my leg wings. The fight and flare was just as good and the flare IMO was better on the dash-m. I had a softer landing and found no issues with the toggle stroke on the dash-m.
Now some might say that the prior experience on the PD paid off in having to land the Dash-m, maybe.

That was definitely not my experience with Raven’s.

Quote

Both deployments were at terminal or less. If speed of deployment was an issue as in a premature HD freefly reserve deployment then I would like to see spanwise tapes in the bottom skin just like my main has.

Then you might want to get a PD, it has span-wise tapes on the bottom skin, and the Raven-M does not. The –M has span-wise SEAMS on the bottom skin, but no span-wise tape.

Edit: From PA's web page:

"In addition to eliminating all of the bridle attachment hardware and associated load tapes, we also eliminated the packing tabs and designed the canopy from the beginning as a reserve only. The construction of the lower surface is done in a spanwise direction, with double folded seams running across the line attachment points from wingtip to wingtip. The beauty of this load transfer technology is that the structural components of the design are integrated into the wing itself and transfer loads properly without the use of heavy and bulky tapes as an afterthought to the canopy construction."

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Some people choose to save money on a cheaper (used) to be hopefully used less reserve. Others don't get the cypres for their back-up rig or even their main rig. I know people that won't jump without a cypres but still have soft housings in there older Javs. I'm not talking the risers I'm talking the harness. Those are all personal decisions. But I'm not going to tell someone to junk their much maligned already paid for perfectly functional reserve that flys and lands just fine as long as you don't exceed the design limits.

Even within the design limits, they weren’t holding together (and I don’t think the fix fixed it) and they don’t land as well as a PD.

Derek

[VectorBoy 0]

Even within the design limits, they weren’t holding together (and I don’t think the fix fixed it) and they don’t land as well as a PD.

Derek

[base698 15]

Quote

The canopies that "blew up" were loaded close to or beyond the mfr's recommended maximum.

My guess is that a heavy jumper under a larger -M reserve would also run the risk of this defect. The forces acting on a canopy are roughly the same during opening wingload to wingload as there are the same number of attachments and lines.

I could be wrong though...

I sold mine and got a PD the week of the SB. Partially because if you look in back Parachutist magazines prior to the SB there are a series of reserves that blew up operating "outside manufacturer limits". Pfft.

[linestretch 0]

So Jennifer, what do you think? Pretty touchy subject. I got lucky with my first rig as it had a PD-160 in it. I've used it twice, and it was rock solid. I also have a PD-126, and have used that one twice two, and again, rock solid. And I'm about 200lbs out the door.

I've also heard about the left turn story with some the Raven's too. Don't know what's that all about. I did hear a theory about "if your unconscience under your reserve, you fly off to another county".

I also know that the Raven's generally pack smaller. From what I've noticed is that thickness of the wing is smaller than a PD, or other comparable reserves. This may be one reason people prefer them, as they can cram them into a smaller container. As for packing them, they are very easy to work with (for me anyway).

The idea about demo'ing one is a good one. If you could, demo a Raven and a PD at the same time, and of comparable sizes. This will give you a good idea of the difference's.

once again, good luck.

my pics & stuff!

[Canuck 0]

Just so people don't get all confused, the new Precision reserve is called a r-max, not an a-max. The A-max is Aerodyne's swooper.

Canuck

[webracer 0]

Jen,
The Raven reserve is a good one. Yes, they had problems with stitching, something they did in the past, then stopped doing, then restarted.
The real problem with them is the way they handled the recall. They put out a mandatory recall, for fairly recent products, and charged for the repair. Some great dealers did the repairs for their customers (that bought the reserves from them) for free.
Precision ultimately accepted the profits from the sales but would not accept responsibility for the product.
Regarding your reserve, if it was covered by the recall, and was repaired, or if it was not covered, and is "OK", you have no need to worry. You know I love ya and I wouldn't mind you using it.
I have switched to PD exclusively, but only because of Precision's attitude regarding the recall. I had two dash-m reserves at the time and dumped them. They were not affected by the recall as they were too new, but I dumped them because of Precision's lack of responsible behavior.
In fact, I would only recommend dash-m or PD reserves, but I haven't seen the Smart yet.
I don't think the dash-m reserves fly quite as well under high wingloading as the PD reserves though (not a problem in your case).
Keep the reserve, it'll serve you well when you need it! If you try to sell it, you will likely not get much due to the confusion about this issue and the attitude of people like me that like good customer service.
If you buy new, buy PD though (the best choice)
BTW, I have a PD126R for sale if you're interested.

Troy

I am now free to exercise my downward mobility.

[BlindBrick 0]

I've got 2 reserve rides and about 20 main jumps on Ravens IV's. The only trouble I ever had witht he flare on a Raven was that it was so powerful that it took me by suprise. I was on a reserve ride and flared a lot harder than I usually do. I had a nice little surf about five-six feet above the ground which meant I got a little skinned at the end but no biggie.

I've packed several different types of reserves and while some pack easier than others, I've never seen a brand that I could say was worse than another. Unitl recently, I couldn't say that any one was superior than the other; however, I recently purchased a R-Max 282 for my new rig and wow. That's got to be the most over-engineered canopy I've ever seen. Nothing's ever guaranteed but I definatley like the thoguht of having that R-Max as my reserve.

-Blind

"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it."

[koz2000 1]

I will be getting some R-max's from George in the near future to jump as mains in Yuma. I'll let everyone know how they fly. Most of my reserve rides have been on PD's but I've had two Raven-M rides. IMO, opens great just a little weak on the flare, but they saved my life.

______________________________________________
- Does this small canopy make my balls look big? - J. Hayes -

[GroundZero 0]

Troy,

Let me give some inside info that may help you and everyone understand the Precision Service Bulletin issued regarding the earlier Dash-M reserves.

We issued SB1221 after we had a failure of a Dash-M reserve that was within the placarded weight (and possibly also within speed limit, but we can't be sure.) Our first step was to contact the MIDO (FAA) in Atlanta requesting an emergency Airworthiness Directive. If we had a failure, we wanted to protect all of our customers. The FAA answered with "The body count is not high enough." We heard arguments from the FAA that perhaps body position on deployment, packing technique or many other causes could be the reason for the failure.

We responded by immediately issueing SB1221.

Implementing a service bulletin of this magnatude would be difficult. This covered many thousands of reserves, virtually all in service, as they were (are) a current design.

To ensure that all jumpers would be able to get their canopies in compliance quickly, we needed the riggers in the field with appropriate equipment. To set an acceptable payment to these riggers, we (at Precision) established a charge of $50. With Precision charging this amount, the riggers in the field could charge the same amount and not be accused of "gouging" customers. The riggers would be paid by the customers directly and with registration of the completed repair, a merchandise credit of $100 was issued to the customer to offset his expense.
In many cases, dealers (riggers) would perform this update for no charge to the customer and accept the customers merchandise credit certificate in exchange.

...a little description of the SB... The Dash-M canopies affected by the Service Bulletin use Type III tape for the line attachment loops, attached to the lower surface load bearing rib by a single 42 stitch bartack. These canopies were manufactured from initial release, 03 October 1996, thru 12 April 1999. All canopies continue to evolve. In 1999, we found that we could build a stronger canopy by using 2 bartacks in place of the single bartack. The (actual) failure was seen many years after the change, and involved the original construction. The update mandated by the service bulletin, simply turned these older canopies into newer version construction, one that we have witnessed (through continued testing) to be tougher.


(sidebar... the Smart Reserve (by Aerodyne) shown at the 2003 PIA Symposium in Jacksonville utilizes the exact line attachment construction as the original Precision Dash-M reserves, their drop testing also validates the construction method... Type III tape with single 42 stitch bartack.)



Everyone must understand the size, the magnitude of this in our microscopic industry. At Precision, we have a limited production capability. (No Ford or GM here...) Our concern was primarily ensuring the safety of our customers (our friends...). With the release of this SB, we pointed the loaded gun at ourselves. Understanding the repercusions of our action (mandatory service bulletin), we knew full well that we would bear the total fury of the customers. Our concern was your safety, even at the expense of our name. We have taken a substantial hit in terms of customer confidence because we "charged" for this update. Yet, we saw nearly complete compliance in about one repack cycle. An improvement to more reserves, quicker than anyone has ever attempted before. These canopies are better than the original, at a minimal cost and completed quickly. With the assistance of the entire rigging force available, we improved more reserve canopies than ever tried before this SB. Yes we will always hear someone "nay" saying, but our concern is you the jumper. (We are jumpers also and jump the very same canopies.)

Our testing program never stops. Our output is over 90% TSO'ed canopies. During our testing, we initially test to success (the design receives approval through the TSO process..) and continue beyond the required limits. Every one of our TSO'ed designs have been tested to failure. We use to think we knew where, why and when a design will fail. While we see failures in our testing, real life applications continue show us things that are unexpected. This sport has inherent risks. The skydiving methods are changing. (And we use to think the Style guys had a high speed freefall!) As the sport changes, we will too. We will always try to offer the highest quality canopies available. But we will always do what is most important, do our best to protect our friends in this sport. There are enough risks in this sport. I want to minimize those risks. I want to give you a bullet-proof reserve... and currently I think I have that answer.

Sincerely,

Chris Martin
Precision Aerodynamics

chris@NOSPAMprecision.net
423-949-4688

[jmfreefly 0]

And the new reserve built by Aerodyne is the SMART reserve, built by a few of the designers of the TECHNO (parachutes de france mfgs the techno, not TSO'd in the us). Supposedly there is no relation to the old Tempos, even though Aerodyne merged/bought PISA.

I read about their design a bit before I bought one (and the price couldn't be beat). Supposedly they have a slightly tapered tail(?), and claim to have better landing characteristics.

I also have a Dash-M, which I am planning to swap out at some point (also downsize the reserve), but I still have confidence in the reserve.

As for 'you are lightly loading it, so you should be ok..' isn't a good statement to go by. I believe some of the failures were under moderate loading. Additionally, the ratings are under 'normal conditions'. If you increase your speed (like if you were balled up trying to clear a Pilotchute in tow), you increase your energy as a square of velocity.

Anyway, newer designs (like RMAX and SMART) have done their line attachement points differently. The RMAX, I think actually uses spectra as the attachment, vs. tape.