hookitt 1 #1 December 15, 2003 From the Aerodyne International Article on the dz.com home page. " A line stow retention system on the reserve freebag to help control reserve deployments at high speeds, while not sacrificing low speed requirements" Does anybody have pictures or a good description of what this is referring too?My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #2 December 15, 2003 i don't have any pics but i'll try to explain what it is from what my buddy dominic hayhurst has told me about it and what i saw of it at PIA. where the regular pouch for the lines are there are elasic pieces sewn down where you pull the "bite" of line thru. like on the old military (or maybe they still use em) rigs where you pulled the bit thru a pice of like binding tape. aerodyne has just taken that idea and used elasitic to make it not hold as tight. that may seam unclear, if it does sorry. hopefully someone will explain it better. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybeergodd 0 #3 December 15, 2003 Rigging innovations uses the same type of line stow system on it's freebag in the Avaitor rig. It's an emergency bail-out rig for pilots....if you've ever pack on of those it's almost exactly the same . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #4 December 15, 2003 I think it's a system like on some military diapers where you use a hook to pull lines through alternating elastic "tubes" sewn into the diaper. Not sure how long they are overall, but I do remember seeing them somewhere along the line... Nice idea, sounds kind of gimic-y to me though. It would certainly keeps the lines well organized but it seems like quite a bit of extra work for not much gain... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #5 December 16, 2003 Doesn't the Atom (parachutes de france) use something like that? I haven't seen an atom yet (cut me some slack -- I just got my ticket), but have heard they have non-elastic hesitator loops under a protective flap on the freebag... I've been told that hesistator loops are one of the most effective ways to control line payout. But why elastic loops on the Icon? A rep from Aerodyne will be at the Spring Expo here at SDC in March, so I'll have the pleasure of finding out then (hopefully before!). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #6 December 16, 2003 QuoteNice idea, sounds kind of gimic-y to me though. It would certainly keeps the lines well organized but it seems like quite a bit of extra work for not much gain... It has been around too many decades to be in the gimic category. I like the elastic holder idea for reserve lines. I have never been keen on freestowing them in the pocket. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #7 December 16, 2003 QuoteIt has been around too many decades to be in the gimic category. I'm aware that's it been around for decades, but that doesn't mean it's not a gimic for the sport world. The fact is, we don't need line retention systems. Simple as that. It's been proven time and again...and not having one is the standard on pretty much every freebag out there...and they've been working just fine for years as well. Just out of curiosity, why don't you like freestowing? Do you have a specific reason, or is it just the idea of things not being "ordered"? Honest question, no hidden strings.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #8 December 17, 2003 Manley Butler explained to me that rubber bands work fine - up to a certain airspeed - but when you get up around 250 knots - at pack opening time - cloth sleeves really help prevent line dump. Sure, old-school line stow pockets work great at low and medium airspeeds, but you need more control at higher airspeeds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZag 0 #9 December 17, 2003 They were used extensively with military rigs, some pilot rigs and on the Atom free-bags as well. If you take the migration of personel that used to work at P.d.F. to Aerodyne into account, then it is not difficult to entertain the idea that similar designs would be used on the 'Icon'. So there is nothing new. It is merely a design philosophy that has been repackaged and re-introduced in the overall sceme of marketing. The conventional system of free-stowing reserve lines into a seperate pocket works just fine and has proven itself over many jumps and years. That is not to say that the retention band system is bad. It works and serves to control the bights as they are stowed, but to categorically say that they are responsible for controlling reserve deployments and then to equate the system as a feature for controlling high speed deployments is farfetched in light of the absence of definitive data. Otherwise I would like to see such data published. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #10 December 17, 2003 QuoteManley Butler explained to me that rubber bands work fine - up to a certain airspeed - but when you get up around 250 knots - at pack opening time - cloth sleeves really help prevent line dump. Cool! Next time I'm doing 250kts, I'll be sure to have those on my rig! Seriously though, I've heard that before, and it just reinforces to me the fact that it's a gimic without a real place in sport skydiving... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skygod7777 0 #11 December 17, 2003 QuoteSeriously though, I've heard that before, and it just reinforces to me the fact that it's a gimic without a real place in sport skydiving... oh course it is, it just sounds kinda cool so people will buy it because they think it's better. later Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #12 December 17, 2003 Quoteoh course it is, it just sounds kinda cool so people will buy it because they think it's better. I love crap like this... Rather than making people learn about how their systems work and why, like we did not all that many years ago, (which would lead them to understand that some of the gimics offered don't do dick for them except cost more) we're raising a class of skydivers that we aren't forcing to learn anything because we don't want to offend them or "bother them with details" and have them take their money elsewhere... Gotta love a market economy sometimes, huh? Heaven forbid people learn that this sport isn't safe!... They might be concerned for their own safety and the safety of those around them and learn how to be safer!! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KellyF 16 #13 December 18, 2003 Ryan, you sound bitter Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #14 December 18, 2003 What you are referring to are called flutes on a 1/4 bag. They are made of fabric not elastic. They are designed for much higher speeds then we deal with in sport jumping where stow bands will not work.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LouDiamond 1 #15 December 18, 2003 QuoteThey are made of fabric not elastic. They are designed for much higher speeds then we deal with in sport jumping That is correct. They are made out of cotton canvas material and sewn to the D bag on the MC-1 series canopies. I will see if I have a picture handy and post it."It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required" Some people dream about flying, I live my dream SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #16 December 18, 2003 QuoteWhat you are referring to are called flutes Thank you! I couldn't remember what they were called to save my ass!!! QuoteThey are made of fabric not elastic Is that for all models? I could have sworn I packed a rig for a guy and they we're that thick, OD green elastic webbing...of course, it was several years ago, so I could be very wrong.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #17 December 19, 2003 QuoteJust out of curiosity, why don't you like freestowing? Do you have a specific reason, or is it just the idea of things not being "ordered"? Honest question, no hidden strings.... Honest answer: it just seems less orderly than if the lines are metered out. It is actually a rather visceral feeling, rather than an engineering one. I don't think the data is really there. To satisfy me you'd have to test drop 10,000 reserves with the only difference being half of them having the line stows. Is it really an issue for me. No, I've never jumped a square reserve that did other than the free-stow pocket method. I bought in to square reserves in 1979. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #18 December 19, 2003 Fair enough! "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #19 December 22, 2003 Rigging Innovations installed similar line stow elastic inside the line stow pocket on the P124A/Aviator pilot emergency parachute. No-one at R.I. expected the light-weight elastic to have any affect on openings, it was purely a comfort feature. The light-weight elastics help hold the line bulk in a "flat" configuration, minimizing bumps and lumps that might bruise the tender tushies of soft-skinned pilots. Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #20 December 22, 2003 QuoteThe light-weight elastics help hold the line bulk in a "flat" configuration, minimizing bumps and lumps that might bruise the tender tushies of soft-skinned pilots. Yeah, but come on...they're pilots. Soft asses, soft egos "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
