dthames 0 #1 March 26, 2015 As a beginner skydiver I was taught that at pull time to try once, reset…try again, and after two tries if you can’t get the main deployment to go for the reserve. Flying WSs I have seen people reach for the deployment handle, go back to flying, get 'stable' again, and then go for the pull again. My personal choice is that when I go to my deployment posture, is that I then fly stable and if I can’t get the handle right away (maybe fabric in the way) I resolve it while continuing to fall stable. In light of the recent WS “no pull” fatality, I wonder if there are many WS pilots that don’t feel comfortable staying in the deployment position. For me, it was a big bonus when I learned that I could sink it in and relax if the first attempt didn’t get it out. Any thoughts? (silly question)Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnmatrix 21 #2 March 26, 2015 I definitely agree with this - I think the key to learning to deploy is to be able to fly stable in the 'deployment position' so you're not feeling any pressure to get it out as soon as possible. Being calm and deliberate first time is faster than trying too quickly and missing it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #3 March 26, 2015 Dan, interesting point to bring up and one that might not be thought about as much as it might deserve. Going into the deployment "position" should be something that a WS pilot should be able to hold. That is, as I see it, a required skill before going to bigger suits. The ability to stay stable, though important in flight, becomes more so during the deployment sequence. To those ends, I am happy to see a FFC student do multiple practice touches on the first flight beyond what might have been requested in training, and I let them know that. Ultimately the number one goal on any skydive is to open your parachute. As more jumps come along that comfort should increase to the point that you can hold that position. Just my $0.02 Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #4 March 26, 2015 I'm really comfortable staying in the deployment position. I pull from flight. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thijs 0 #5 March 26, 2015 When I switched from P3 to Havok I had a number of jumps I found fabric instead of my pilot chute. I always went back to full flight position, and tried to grab again, always finding it the second time. I think that if you grab part of your wing instead of your pilot, it is best to go back to a position where the wing is in its 'normal' shape, and try again. I think that staying in the deployment position and trying to get the wing fabric out of the way will take longer, eat up more altitude and potentially get you more unstable (remember that you are not 'holding' the deployment position, but you are looking for you pilot chute). Just my 2 cents.. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wasatchrider 0 #6 March 26, 2015 me too without putting my other arm inBASE 1519 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #7 March 26, 2015 sdctlc Dan, interesting point to bring up and one that might not be thought about as much as it might deserve. Going into the deployment "position" should be something that a WS pilot should be able to hold. That is, as I see it, a required skill before going to bigger suits. The ability to stay stable, though important in flight, becomes more so during the deployment sequence. To those ends, I am happy to see a FFC student do multiple practice touches on the first flight beyond what might have been requested in training, and I let them know that. Ultimately the number one goal on any skydive is to open your parachute. As more jumps come along that comfort should increase to the point that you can hold that position. Just my $0.02 Scott C. This^^ Quote I'm really comfortable staying in the deployment position. I pull from flight. This isn't something a new wingsuiter should be doing. Learn the basics first. Since this thread is likely spawned from Marius' fatality, it's equally worth discussing being trained, and able to perfectly demonstrate the deployment position prior to getting on the aircraft for that first jump. Marius didn't have a single good deployment in the wingsuit based on his own comments, questions, and several videos. Of the videos shared with me, he never once was head-up, never once closed his tail, and struggled even in non-wingsuit skydives (which is likely what led to the several chops he'd had). While the "Try twice then silver" is a valid and useful discussion even in wingsuiting, training that leads to proper body position is just as valid and useful. Like Scott says, one should be able to fly with arms in a variety of configurations, including both shut down, before moving to a bigger suit. https://vimeo.com/123336940 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #8 March 26, 2015 Really cool video. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pms07 3 #9 March 27, 2015 Thanks Spot! I love that video and it very clearly demonstrates some really important ideas. Perhaps most importantly, developing good freefall skills before putting on a wingsuit, in a variety of attitudes, especially when things don't go as planned, is really important. I think this is an overlooked item in some FFCs: Realistically evaluating the student's freefall skills to determine if they are really ready. Rather the measure sometimes appears to be; you have 200 jumps--so are good to go. From what I've seen, this may be the case with Marius... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chemist 0 #10 March 28, 2015 I found out it's much more stable to pull in flight after I finished my coach jumps Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #11 March 28, 2015 chemist I found out it's much more stable to pull in flight after I finished my coach jumps Pulling in flight is indeed a good idea, when you consider that "in flight" describes any controlled descent. In that respect, the alternative to pulling in flight is pulling while spiraling out of control, so yes please do pull while in flight. There are a handful of different ways to deploy in a wingsuit, and none are really "more stable" than the others. Although, pulling from a traditional student position (collapsed wings) is both gentler and more forgiving than pulling from an efficient glide or fast forward speed (at the cost of requiring more altitude).www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
verticalflyer 11 #12 March 28, 2015 The 111 There are a handful of different ways to deploy in a wingsuit, and none are really "more stable" than the others. None are really more stable perhaps you might want to reevaluate that statement. If you seriously believe none are more stable why do you think the student position is taught and not a maxed out position. Posts stating none are more stable are ill informed and unhelpful. Basic aerodynamics dictate that there are significant stability differences between positions. The issue with all this debate is respeculation over tried and proven techniques. Unfortunately people get lazy and often fail to do basics they were taught. Common issue remains leg wings not being shut whilst arm wings are initiating a head low pitch couple with instabiloty if they drop a shoulder. Dont just talk about it, Do it! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #13 March 28, 2015 verticalflyer Basic aerodynamics dictate that there are significant stability differences between positions. The issue with all this debate is respeculation over tried and proven techniques. Stability comes from the pilot, which comes from skill. None is inherently more stable because they can all be perfectly stable. I did however state that the traditional student position is more forgiving, which makes it perfect for people with low skill, i.e. students. When I trained students I did teach the traditional pull method, and I still believe it's best for them, because it is forgiving (which often does have correlation to stability). My comments in the post above were not meant as an instructional for students, and they were directed at somebody who is already apparently doing differently than he was taught. That choice is his, but I agree I've seen the dipped shoulder and legwing wide open thing you mention many times on FFC's, I remember one girl who actually did a front flip on her first reach. www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dthames 0 #14 March 29, 2015 The111 ***Basic aerodynamics dictate that there are significant stability differences between positions. The issue with all this debate is respeculation over tried and proven techniques. Stability comes from the pilot, which comes from skill. None is inherently more stable because they can all be perfectly stable. I did however state that the traditional student position is more forgiving, which makes it perfect for people with low skill, i.e. students. When I trained students I did teach the traditional pull method, and I still believe it's best for them, because it is forgiving (which often does have correlation to stability). My comments in the post above were not meant as an instructional for students, and they were directed at somebody who is already apparently doing differently than he was taught. That choice is his, but I agree I've seen the dipped shoulder and legwing wide open thing you mention many times on FFC's, I remember one girl who actually did a front flip on her first reach. Skydive (not base): A new/unfamiliar suit, to me, is also good reason to fall back in student type methods. It took me a while to learn the value of getting all folded up and being able to stay that way, if need be, for longer than normal.Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chemist 0 #15 March 29, 2015 if you told me pulling in flight increases risk of pilot chute in tow cause you're not breaking up that burble as much I Could listen to that. If the student position is so much more stable how come BASE jumpers don't use that method where there is a lot less room for error? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Absolut 0 #16 March 29, 2015 I guess it's mostly because of the loss of altitude you would experience if pulling in collapsed position as you would start falling again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #17 March 29, 2015 chemistIf the student position is so much more stable how come BASE jumpers don't use that method where there is a lot less room for error? The answer is in my previous post. As I said there, student deploy method trades altitude for softness and forgiveness of poor body position. Altitude is obviously more important than softness in BASE, and a BASE jumper should be experienced enough that he doesn't need forgiveness for poor body position. As I also already said, I don't believe either position is more stable if done correctly. The student position however is easier because of how forgiving it is.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chemist 0 #18 March 30, 2015 well we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Perhaps there are many factors at play like type of suit, height, weight, and canopy... where one configuration of factors will favor one method over the other. For me pulling in flight is always more stable, softer, on heading and predictable. But it could be because of the combination of my suit, weight, center of gravity and height that makes it the better position to pull in. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mikki_ZH 0 #19 March 30, 2015 phoenixlpr I'm really comfortable staying in the deployment position. I pull from flight. same here exept I bend one arm (pull arm) to reach my pc. If I fumble to long I will be flying a circle Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #20 March 30, 2015 Read this again. QuoteThe answer is in my previous post. As I said there, student deploy method trades altitude for softness and forgiveness of poor body position. Altitude is obviously more important than softness in BASE, and a BASE jumper should be experienced enough that he doesn't need forgiveness for poor body position. Key word "Student." Teaching a newbie to deploy in flight is begging for trouble. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #21 March 30, 2015 chemistFor me pulling in flight is always more stable, softer, on heading and predictable. But it could be because of the combination of my suit, weight, center of gravity and height that makes it the better position to pull in. It has nothing to do with any of the factors you've mentioned. If you can't get a reliable opening from a student pull, then you're not doing it right.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #22 March 30, 2015 Both positions are equally stable for pulling. But in case of screwups (asymmetry) the full-flight position can spell horror (due to the forward vector) where the 'student' position will just keep falling straight down, at worse with a slight turn left or right.JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #23 March 30, 2015 mccordia Both positions are equally stable for pulling. But in case of screwups (asymmetry) the full-flight position can spell horror (due to the forward vector) where the 'student' position will just keep falling straight down, at worse with a slight turn left or right. Agreed 100%, that is precisely what I meant by choosing the word "forgiving" over stable. For anyone else who still doesn't see the difference: stability comes from symmetry, and perfect symmetry will make both versions perfectly stable. But slight imperfection (asymmetry) favors the student position, making it more reliable and forgiving.www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #24 March 31, 2015 QuoteKey word "Student." Teaching a newbie to deploy in flight is begging for trouble. I'd rather call it classic. "Student" has a strong stigma in this sport. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Klassen 0 #25 April 2, 2015 I did fine with the deployment in FCC but after a couple spins as I started flying I wasn't relaxed at pull time so if I didn't get it I would start flying again then it would be there for try two. Around jump 40 the dog bit me and I lost my free bag. I know now this is not something to take for granted. I have been working hard to be relaxed and confident at pull time and get a good grip the first time. I have not flown larger suits but feel I wasted time and became too used to returning to flight for try two and should have fixed this before I had to use plan B. Also have seeked coaching. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites