kallend 2,026 #1 September 8, 2015 In 2009 the USPA adopted a square grid criterion for judging wingsuit formations. In July of that year a 25-way diamond was flown that satisfied the criterion and was awarded the US national record by USPA. A couple of years later the USPA criterion was modified. However, that 25-way formation still met the modified criterion. More recently the FAI finally got its act together and came up with its own square grid, now adopted by USPA. The 2009 25-way jump STILL meets the latest IPC/USPA grid criterion (see attached picture with the IPC grid overlayed. Yet for some reason the 25-way is no longer considered a US record and has now been "beaten" by a 9-way, a 16-way and a 24-way. As anyone who has read this forum for a while knows, I am no great fan of a square grid as a record criterion. However, it is what we have. It seems very strange to me that the largest formation that is known to have been flown in the US, was evaluated and confirmed by USPA judges, and that clearly fits the CURRENT criterion is no longer a record, but a smaller one is.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dthames 0 #2 September 8, 2015 John, I don't know how these records were summited back in 2009, but would the 2009 submitting process (not the formation quality itself) meet today's submitting standards? Like today there are rules like the formation, names in slots, names on aircraft manifest, video of the full flight, all are part of the submission rules. If the 2009 submission/verification would meet today's rules, Yes you have a good point. But if the 2009 flight was submitted under some less than the same verification of the flight, flight members, etc, I can see where some might say the record is not valid under todays rules, even though the formation would fit the grid just fine.Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #3 September 8, 2015 dthamesJohn, I don't know how these records were summited back in 2009, but would the 2009 submitting process (not the formation quality itself) meet today's submitting standards? Like today there are rules like the formation, names in slots, names on aircraft manifest, video of the full flight, all are part of the submission rules. If the 2009 submission/verification would meet today's rules, Yes you have a good point. But if the 2009 flight was submitted under some less than the same verification of the flight, flight members, etc, I can see where some might say the record is not valid under todays rules, even though the formation would fit the grid just fine. The reporting requirements are the same for all large formation records (RW, CRW, VRW, wingsuit..., see USPA Competition Manual, Chapter 3) and I haven't seen any of those records being "retired" on account of a reporting requirement change.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WickedWingsuits 0 #4 September 9, 2015 I think it is a shame that such a subtle change in the grid voids so many old records. We had a blast running around the country setting state records in the "old daze". Not to worry, in a few years a non grid judging system based on GPS and "dots" will be adopted and all of these will be void too. It is still always a good reason to travel and fly with friends. Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month. Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #5 September 9, 2015 WickedWingsuits I think it is a shame that such a subtle change in the grid voids so many old records. We had a blast running around the country setting state records in the "old daze". Yep, but my point is that even after the subtle change, that 25-way still fits the latest, greatest grid. Edited to add: the 2012 68-way at Elsinore does not seem to fit the IPC grid as far as I can see. Are you going to the Perris event next month?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dthames 0 #6 September 9, 2015 WickedWingsuits I think it is a shame that such a subtle change in the grid voids so many old records. We had a blast running around the country setting state records in the "old daze". Not to worry, in a few years a non grid judging system based on GPS and "dots" will be adopted and all of these will be void too. It is still always a good reason to travel and fly with friends. Some of us have already been talking.....when the Differential GPS system comes into play for judging we can also interface with some lights in a person's peripheral vision to tell them, Move Up, Move Back, Move Left, Move Right. It will make larger formations more precise.Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #7 September 9, 2015 Quotethe 2012 68-way at Elsinore does not seem to fit the IPC grid as far as I can see. The 33 and 42 way EU/World Records flown in Belgium do fit the current IPC grid, and have been approved a such by the present FAI judges.JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #8 September 9, 2015 mccordiaQuotethe 2012 68-way at Elsinore does not seem to fit the IPC grid as far as I can see. The 33 and 42 way EU/World Records flown in Belgium do fit the current IPC grid, and have been approved a such by the present FAI judges. Yes - Nice job. My OP interest is in the US national record.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #9 September 9, 2015 Well, mystery solved. The guy at USPA acknowledges that the Ottawa 25 way is indeed the largest complete formation flown in the USA that meets the IPC grid criterion (The Massachussets jump equalled it, but was later so wasn't a national record). The 68 way does not. The reason it isn't listed as the record under the current rules has nothing to do with its submission (which was fine) or meeting the criterion (which it does). It is due entirely to political deal making that happened at the 2014 IPC meeting in Vienna, in order to get the rules changed. So 24 wingsuiters were cheated out of a valid national record on account of wingsuit politics. Tout ca change tout c'est la meme chose. The really weird thing is that state records were left as before. So we now have the bizarre situation that several state records are larger than the national record. Politics! ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #10 September 10, 2015 But hey...look at it on the bright side...every few years you get to reset the National record, and charge everyone a fortune again to participate in the new one JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackJ 0 #11 September 10, 2015 on the subject of charging a fortune....what's with the $52 per lob for October? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skwrl 56 #12 September 10, 2015 kallendthe Ottawa 25 way is indeed the largest complete formation flown in the USA Did the US annex Canada when I was at Burning Man? I miss out on all the fun stuff... On the plus side, I anticipate a poutine dividend.Skwrl Productions - Wingsuit Photography Northeast Bird School - Chief Logistics Guy and Video Dork Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #13 September 10, 2015 Skwrl***the Ottawa 25 way is indeed the largest complete formation flown in the USA Did the US annex Canada when I was at Burning Man? I miss out on all the fun stuff... On the plus side, I anticipate a poutine dividend. Ontario is part of Illinois already. Also California.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #14 September 10, 2015 mccordia But hey...look at it on the bright side...every few years you get to reset the National record, and charge everyone a fortune again to participate in the new one Why would I care about setting a national record that is smaller than my state record? It all seems very silly to me. But then so do DZ politics and square grids.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #15 September 10, 2015 JackJ on the subject of charging a fortune....what's with the $52 per lob for October? No argument there from me. I'm going because I like big ways - I'm doing a 128-way RW event the week before. Expensive, yes, but my kids are grown and gone, my house, cars and plane are paid for, and I need to spend my kids' inheritance before they get it.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mccordia 74 #16 September 11, 2015 Quote what's with the $52 per lob for October? wow...thats an incredibly high price...we managed to run a multiplane (high experience) world record bigway here at 25,00 per jump or 15.000 ft jumps, and the margin on that included all slots, airplane ferry flights, dayfee, food and travel expenses for the organizers without any additional overcharge or registration fee for the participants. But guess 75k for expenses always comes in handy...JC FlyLikeBrick I'm an Athlete? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackJ 0 #17 September 11, 2015 kallend ***on the subject of charging a fortune....what's with the $52 per lob for October? No argument there from me. I'm going because I like big ways - I'm doing a 128-way RW event the week before. Expensive, yes, but my kids are grown and gone, my house, cars and plane are paid for, and I need to spend my kids' inheritance before they get it.Fair enough, can't argue with that. I on the other hand have been putting off real life for a long time and have no house, car, plane or kids. Maybe if I lived in the states and didnt have to fly over from England then maybe i wouldn't moan so much,. mccordia Quote what's with the $52 per lob for October? wow...thats an incredibly high price...we managed to run a multiplane (high experience) world record bigway here at 25,00 per jump or 15.000 ft jumps, and the margin on that included all slots, airplane ferry flights, dayfee, food and travel expenses for the organizers without any additional overcharge or registration fee for the participants. But guess 75k for expenses always comes in handy... That's what i was comparing it too as i was there As unused lobs are refunded at $30 that's $528 in expenses, must be one hell of a goody bag! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #18 September 11, 2015 mccordia Quote what's with the $52 per lob for October? wow...thats an incredibly high price...we managed to run a multiplane (high experience) world record bigway here at 25,00 per jump or 15.000 ft jumps, and the margin on that included all slots, airplane ferry flights, dayfee, food and travel expenses for the organizers without any additional overcharge or registration fee for the participants. But guess 75k for expenses always comes in handy... I'm expecting a REALLY nice tee shirt for the price.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #19 September 11, 2015 In an interesting irony, it turns out that the July 2009 25-way Illinois jump is used by the FAI as the EXAMPLE of a formation meeting the new IPC grid standard. www.fai.org/downloads/ipc/SC5_Wingsuit_LargeFormationPerf See page 5. So having stated that it met the new criterion for an official FAI world record, it ceased to be a national record. ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dthames 0 #20 September 11, 2015 mccordia Quote what's with the $52 per lob for October? wow...thats an incredibly high price...we managed to run a multiplane (high experience) world record bigway here at 25,00 per jump or 15.000 ft jumps, and the margin on that included all slots, airplane ferry flights, dayfee, food and travel expenses for the organizers without any additional overcharge or registration fee for the participants. But guess 75k for expenses always comes in handy... I just got back from Houston where we set the new Texas State record (24). We jumped from 15,000 feet for $25 or $26, I think maybe $26 on the formation jumps. Anyway, I was delighted that the organizers managed to make it happen at the normal jump ticket price. Some birds are already looking for a sugar-daddy with so many WS events this year. Thanks Spaceland, pilots, and Purple Mike for a great camp.Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #21 September 24, 2015 mccordia But hey...look at it on the bright side...every few years you get to reset the National record, and charge everyone a fortune again to participate in the new one YOU SPEAK THE TRUTH! You kids have fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yorick 0 #22 September 27, 2015 Grids... well, I just read the weird FAI rule that states: QuoteFor formations larger than 40, a certain number of persons, as indicated in Table 1 below, may have part of their body, equipment or wingsuit visible across the line of their flying space. http://www.dfv.aero/downloads/WS-LFD-2015.pdf Up to 25% of the people not flying in their slot. Thats so ridiculous... I thought that not crossing that virtual line was the challenge, and part of the skill and fun. :-/"The 'perfect' parachute jump was thought to be one where the opening shock and touchdown were simultaneous" -Lyle Cameron, ~1965 --- Falling-With-Style.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dthames 0 #23 September 28, 2015 YorickGrids... well, I just read the weird FAI rule that states: QuoteFor formations larger than 40, a certain number of persons, as indicated in Table 1 below, may have part of their body, equipment or wingsuit visible across the line of their flying space. http://www.dfv.aero/downloads/WS-LFD-2015.pdf Up to 25% of the people not flying in their slot. Thats so ridiculous... I thought that not crossing that virtual line was the challenge, and part of the skill and fun. :-/ [inline table.jpg]Instructor quote, “What's weird is that you're older than my dad!” Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 2,026 #24 September 29, 2015 YorickGrids... well, I just read the weird FAI rule that states: QuoteFor formations larger than 40, a certain number of persons, as indicated in Table 1 below, may have part of their body, equipment or wingsuit visible across the line of their flying space. http://www.dfv.aero/downloads/WS-LFD-2015.pdf Up to 25% of the people not flying in their slot. Thats so ridiculous... I thought that not crossing that virtual line was the challenge, and part of the skill and fun. :-/ As I wrote at the start of this thread: kallendAs anyone who has read this forum for a while knows, I am no great fan of a square grid as a record criterion. ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WickedWingsuits 0 #25 September 29, 2015 dthames***Grids... well, I just read the weird FAI rule that states: QuoteFor formations larger than 40, a certain number of persons, as indicated in Table 1 below, may have part of their body, equipment or wingsuit visible across the line of their flying space. http://www.dfv.aero/downloads/WS-LFD-2015.pdf Up to 25% of the people not flying in their slot. Thats so ridiculous... I thought that not crossing that virtual line was the challenge, and part of the skill and fun. :-/ I guess I don't understand how that is in any way an improvement over the grid that had a bit of overlap for all flyers. It just seems to be a way to reset records and start everything over again.Summer Rental special, 5 weeks for the price of 4! That is $160 a month. Try before You Buy with Wicked Wingsuits - WingsuitRental.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
