JYorkster 0 #26 December 19, 2003 Thanks for all the responses so far...the discussion is about what I expected. To clarify, I have spoken with both Atair and Mirage about the issue. They both argue their own points as previously stated. However, Mirage used to sell their rigs with 24-inch ZP PCs, in fact that is what I have that came with my G3 four years ago. I've never had any problems, but have noticed slower deployments than necessary when pitching sub-terminal. She's gonna try the 24 in Zp one first. That way if her new Cobalt turns out to be a 'bad' one, it can't be blamed on using the 'wrong' pc. She will get to jump it tomorrow if the weather cooperates, so I'll let you know how it goes. Rock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #27 December 19, 2003 Quote50 feet per second. An acceptable range is 30 to 70 FPS Wow, thats like +/- 40% off the "ideal". Seems like an awful lot of variation to me, if we're to believe that P/C size is that critical to openings... QuoteI tried a 22"Cazer P/C but was not impressed with it , I felt it was too small and slippery to be put into a spandex poach that was built for a 28" P/C . So, were you not impressed with the way it extracted the bag?...or the way it fit in the pocket? "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jrcrackers 0 #28 December 20, 2003 Not does, but can. I’d be willing to bet I can make a canopy open hard with a small PC and then make the same canopy open soft with a large PC. I'd be willing to bet the same Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #29 December 20, 2003 QuoteDitto what Diablopilot said. A collapsible PC should have zero effect on how a canopy opens. It collaspes as the canopy comes out of the bag. Whenever theory and practice conflict, you can bet the theory is wrong. I don't pretend to know why a smaller PC effects the openings, but it does. I had a 28" PC on my Cobalt 95, in an Infinity container. My openings were hit and miss, with the not infrequent slammer. I switched to a 24" F111 PC, and the openings have been *far* more consistent and two staged. The difference is unmistakable. If a PC in tow is a concern, you can lengthen the closing loop a little bit. I doubt it's much of an issue unless the container is poorly manufactured or the canopy is simply too bulky. IMO, a more legitimate concern is premature deployment due to a pilot chute that's smaller than the spandex pouch was designed for. In this case, opting for a 24" F111 instead of a 22" ZP is worth exploring. It generates a bit less drag than a ZP, and is less slippery, thus tending to stay put. I've got an eight year old Javelin with fairly trashed spandex, and I still don't have any trouble securely stowing a small PC in it. YMMV -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites andrewstewart 0 #30 December 20, 2003 QuoteDitto what Diablopilot said. A collapsible PC should have zero effect on how a canopy opens. It collaspes as the canopy comes out of the bag. Derek Ditto? What you are saying contradicts what he was saying... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #31 December 20, 2003 Quoteand two staged. I always thought that a canopy opening had a few more steps then that (that we can percieve as jumpers). 1. Snatch force 2. Snivel 3. Opening shock/final opening The Cobalt I jumped was "two staged." You tossed your PC then you had an instant fully inflated canopy over your head. Digital, 1, 0. What was I told to do to "fix" my opening problems (by a very senior person at Atair)? 1. Get a PC that my container manufacture didn't recommend 2. Do about 10 different packing tricks (not at once, try one then the other on different jumps till one worked). 3. Double stow small rubber bands. I was not impressed. I bought a canopy that opened nice and flew very nice (Heatwave). Now I'm awaiting the arrival of a canopy that I couldn't get to open poorly and flies even better (Xfire2). I guess you can say, in the end, my experience with Atair and their Cobalts was very bad (worst opening of my life, I had to fight to keep from passing out after opening). Even more so that I was told to do things by the company that contradicted what the riggers I know said to be true, what I knew to be true and what my container manufacture said to be true.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites imdskydiver 0 #32 December 20, 2003 ***So, were you not impressed with the way it extracted the bag?...or the way it fit in the pocket? I did not like the way it fit in the pocket ,I tried the 22" a few times and did not notice any difference in the way my canopy opened , I was uncomfortable it so i switched back to the one that came with my Mirage , Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #33 December 20, 2003 QuoteDitto what Diablopilot said. A collapsible PC should have zero effect on how a canopy opens. It collaspes as the canopy comes out of the bag. Derek -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ditto? What you are saying contradicts what he was saying... Diablopilot said to get the PC the container manufacturer recommends, not what the canopy manufacturer recommends. -Diablopilot correct me if I am wrong. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #34 December 20, 2003 You're correct, we're in agreement on this one.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites lopullterri 0 #35 December 21, 2003 I , too, did not like the way the larger p/c fit in the BOC, so for over 500 jumps used a smaller, zero-p pilot chute. Had approx. 3 second hesitation on a regular basis. Not enough to bother me, since I was always opening high (tandem video). Wouldn't recommend it, though. Should probably use what the container manufacturer says to use.~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 3ringheathen 0 #36 December 21, 2003 Quote I always thought that a canopy opening had a few more steps then that (that we can percieve as jumpers). 1. Snatch force 2. Snivel 3. Opening shock/final opening You can break down openings into a lot more steps than that. Two stage refers specifically to cell inflation. A good Cobalt will experience center 3 cells inflating first, then the outer 3 on each side. Note that I said a *good* Cobalt. Unfortunately, some do have problems that don't seem to respond well to simple fixes like smaller pilot chutes and tighter line stows. ATAIR is not the first, nor the last to have such troubles, though that won't provide much solace if you get a bad one. The Sabre was notorious for hard openings. I spent a couple of days on a couch with ice on my neck. PD never acknowledged that the Sabre had any design problems, and PD is widely regarded as the best manufacturer out there. Another manufacturer recently had quality control problems with it's reserves. (yikes!) IIRC, Triathlons were pretty inconsistent when they were first produced. Quite a few blew up on opening. The AR 11 had similar problems. The Crossfire killed a few people before they fixed its design flaw. I found the Heatwave to be a mediocre Stiletto clone, with an even shorter recovery arc, and decidedly less bottom end flair than either the Cobalt or the Crossfire. So you have to turn pretty low to get a fun landing out of a Heatwave, but hook it too low and you might not have enough flair to bail out of the dive and walk away. Unlike the other examples, this isn't really a design flaw, but does illustrate how much of canopy choice is personal preference. Quote 1. Get a PC that my container manufacture didn't recommend I suspect that the container manufacturers are being excessively conservative to cover their buts, not unlike the "maximum" wingloadings recomendations that are routinely ignored by anyone with more than a few hundred jumps. The fact is that a properly closed container won't require more than 10-15 LBS of force to open the container. Even a 20" PC provides far more drag than that. Given that the jumper in question already has a Cobalt, I stand by my recomendations regarding PC size, closing loop length, and PC pouch concerns. Hopefully that will make for good openings, in which case, I've no doubt that they'll love their Cobalt. If it's still a problem, that's another issue, but hardly one that's unique to ATAIR products. One last thing: Performance Designs literature supports my contention that PC size affects opening speed. I'm inclined to trust their opinion on that issue. YMMV. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites cloud9 0 #37 December 21, 2003 This amazes me cause up front I admit I know nothing about these things. With that said just a little and very little common sense will tell you that the manufacture of a rig has not, can not and will not ever test that rig with every canopy out there. With that said how the hell would they know what's the best PC for a given canopy? On the other hand a canopy manufacturer can and usally does check out their canopy with many variables in pilot chutes. The container manufacturer is at best a generic fit all. The canopy manufacturer has at least probably tested what they are saying. So with just a little common sense a container manufacturer's recommendation will probably work, a canopy's manufacturer recommendation will probably work better. Common sense! It would be really foolish to say a certain size pilot chute works better with a given container no matter what main, no sense at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #38 December 21, 2003 QuoteThe fact is that a properly closed container won't require more than 10-15 LBS of force to open the container. Even a 20" PC provides far more drag than that. I know for a fact, after many a PC in tow, that a 20-inch PC does not produce enough drag to open a properly closed container. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites imdskydiver 0 #39 December 21, 2003 I questioned the people at Mirage about a smaller P/C, They told me that they use a P/C that will extract "all" canopy's from their container ,They also seemed to be worried that i might re sell my container with the smaller P/C to someone that did not know better and then have an accident with it , so i guess in the end they are more worried about potential law Suites that what will work best with a Cobalt. At least that was the impression that i got from them , Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 3ringheathen 0 #40 December 21, 2003 Quote I know for a fact, after many a PC in tow, that a 20-inch PC does not produce enough drag to open a properly closed container. What kind and how old of a container? Kill line or bungy? What brand of PC? How many jumps on the PC? -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #41 December 21, 2003 QuoteWhat kind and how old of a container? 2001 Micron 304, VX-60 main. QuoteKill line or bungy? Kill line QuoteWhat brand of PC? Cazer, ZP QuoteHow many jumps on the PC? Brand new PC Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JYorkster 0 #42 December 21, 2003 Ok, she got three jumps on it today...here's the details... Jump #1, Mirage G4, 24 in Cazer ZP PC - SLAM! Ok, maybe a fluke, so we'll try again.... Jump #2, Same setup - SLAM! Ok, not doin' that again...SO, we put the canopy in her old container set up EXACTLY the same as the demo she tried and liked...Dolphin, 24 in Cazer ZP PC - SLAM! Looks like we may have gotten one of the 'bad' Cobalts. I'll be talking to Atair on Monday. I'll keep ya posted. Rock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #43 December 21, 2003 Quote some do have problems that don't seem to respond well to simple fixes like smaller pilot chutes and tighter line stows. Ok, "smaller PC" according to all of those around me and in the industry (except for Atair), the smaller PC would result in PC hesitation (in the least, PC in tow at the worst). The "tighter" line stows that was recommended (double stowing small rubber bands) would quite possibly resulted in a bag lock. There's a problem when every other canopy on the market of the same type opens perfectly with the PC that the container manufacture recommends and with small rubber bands single stowed, but this canopy has to have these two things different (dangerous) to fix its openings. QuoteA good Cobalt will experience center 3 cells inflating first, then the outer 3 on each side. So does just about every other canopy on the market today. The center cell inflates and the canopy inflates outward. I can't tell you the number of times that I've seen a Sabre2 open so soft that it has collapsed endcells. I guess that'd be called a "2 stage opening" as well. QuoteThe Sabre was notorious for hard openings. I spent a couple of days on a couch with ice on my neck. PD never acknowledged that the Sabre had any design problems, and PD is widely regarded as the best manufacturer out there. Another manufacturer recently had quality control problems with it's reserves. (yikes!) IIRC, Triathlons were pretty inconsistent when they were first produced. Quite a few blew up on opening. The AR 11 had similar problems. The Crossfire killed a few people before they fixed its design flaw. I don't remember any of them recommending to change a piece of equipment that is out of the realm and into the container manufacture's realm, though. Eitherway, the Cobalt has been produced for a good number of years (since the Space), seems like the opening problems would have been fixed instead of "bandaged" by now. Quoteyou have to turn pretty low to get a fun landing out of a Heatwave Eh, not really. I have to turn lower on the Stiletto I'm jumping now of the same size to get as good of a swoop. With the Heatwave I was jumping, I'd toss out a 270 at about 450ft. That's not too much lower then with the Xfire2 I was jumping or the Cobalt I demoed a while back. Only about 100ft, max.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites grega 0 #44 December 21, 2003 Before you throw the canopy away, try some things. When i got my cobalt competition. (luckily from Stane) he said that this canopy is sent back from US because it has hard openings, and if i'd like to try it, i can. so i did take it. i had about 10 slammers on that canopy. but when i figured the packing i got only 1 slammer on every 5 jumps. what i did was that i pushed the nose in as far as i could, pulled the slider out in front about 2-3 ", and rolled the tail really tight. after you do that you have to be really careful to put the canopy down and in the bag without changing the packing much. sure 1 slammer of 5 is barely enough. so i went to stane and he gave me the domed slider. it's not a slider with pocket but it's shape is different. it's not flat it's domed, somewhat like a baloon if you cut it in half. when i put that slider up, i got nothing but good openings. after that, if i packed the canopy neatly and carefully i got up to 6seconds long opening (it's on camera) and not just sniveling. sniveling was about 3s and 3s it took to spread out the canopy, so no snatch force at the end. if i trash packed the canopy (without pushing the nose in, or pulling the slider out,...) it opens in about 3-4 seconds (not a slammer) So if you really like how the canopy flies, try at least that things i did. after that you'll love the openings too. If cobaltdan can't/won't provide those things, send me a PM and i'll gave you the phone number of someone who will - Atair in Slovenia (customer service is almost perfect)"George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #45 December 21, 2003 QuoteOk, "smaller PC" according to all of those around me and in the industry (except for Atair), the smaller PC would result in PC hesitation (in the least, PC in tow at the worst). The "tighter" line stows that was recommended (double stowing small rubber bands) would quite possibly resulted in a bag lock. Double wrapping rubber bands, large or small and/or a very small PC are both very bad recommendations for the reason AggieDave said. I experimented with small PC's (24-inch down to 20-inch) and eventually got tired of reaching back and pulling the pin. My one and only bag lock was on a tandem that someone had double wrapped the rubber bands on. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TALONSKY 0 #46 December 21, 2003 I am quite sure with the just right pack job and the just right pilot chute and you can't forget the just right pull position you can get most any Cobalt to open nice. I am also pretty sure that after openning they are a good canopy, but in my opinion if you there is no reason to have a canopy that needs that much special attention in order to get good opennings. There are alot of great canopies out there that do not require a degree from the how to fix a canopy that opens really hard in order to get great opennings. OH to Jyokster have you tried openning in a track. That I believe is one of their fixs for their problem canopy along with the smaller pilot chute and the just right packing. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JYorkster 0 #47 December 21, 2003 Thanks for the tips. I'll talk to Atair on Monday and see what they say as well. I also believe that with just the right combination of packing 'tricks' and the right alignment of the planets that we could get a softer opening. However, the fact remains that we used NONE of those tricks on the one she demo'd, and it opened very nicely. There shouldn't be that much variation in canopies of the exact same model and size. Talonsky - I also read the recommendation to "open in a track" to get a softer opening. Based on the bruises/soreness my wife has now, going up again and opening in a track is NOT an option. I'm not sure what laws of physics Atair is using to come up with that approach. Bottom line, you shouldn't have to 'trick' the canopy into opening soft, and resale canopies should open/fly like the demos. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TALONSKY 0 #48 December 21, 2003 I totally agree. From what I have read about Atair canopies is they have some issues where one will open great and the next will slam you. I do not know if you have tried a Crossfire but they are a really great canopy. They open softly and fly very nice with a huge flare power band. The Crossfire 2's are even more incredible. Wish you well Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites grega 0 #49 December 21, 2003 i smell cobalt accusing again Ehm i think you missed something Quote if i trash packed the canopy (without pushing the nose in, or pulling the slider out,...) it opens in about 3-4 seconds (not a slammer) 3-4 seconds opening are loooong. look some videos and count the seconds. 3-4 second openings are soft openings. And as i said, when i got the domed slider, i didn't have to be precise any more. I can trash pack it and it still opens nicely. So no more nice openings in just the right configuration, but nice openings in almost all configurations. Cobalt is a more or less HP canopy. Same like at all HP canopies, you sacrifice freedom of doing as you like for joy and speed. Small HP canopies don't forgive as much as the bigger square one do. and you have to play by the rules to survive when flying/opening HP canopies. if you don't like the rules, get a 7 cell loaded 1.0 :1 at most. with that you can virtually open on your back and it will open nicely, probably a little harder, but you'll survive. Anyway you can start accusing cobalt and the usual, i said what i had in mind. Go on and make cobalt look a bad canopy with bad openings, like the conversation about cobalt usually ends, though mine opens and flies great. Again i'm sorry if you'll despair over such a great canopy after 3 or a little more jumps. oh BTW i don't have any special configuration. like i said at the start, i have mirage g4, with 28" f-111 PC and cobalt comp. 120. and it opens almost too nice (i'm not lying !) p.s.: You have to earn the love of cobalt , i guess i did "George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JYorkster 0 #50 December 21, 2003 Please don't misunderstand...I'm not trying to Cobalt bash... I personally loved the way the demo I tried opened and flew. My wife felt the same way, that's why we ordered her one. I also agree that three openings may be too few to judge the canopy on. However, she was almost knocked unconscious three times in a row. I'm not sure how much more 'testing' she can handle to get this thing 'dialed in'. She's loading it very lightly (1.2/1), so there should be no reason for openings THAT hard. Anyway, not really bashing..just passing along the facts. We are hoping it all gets resolved. She just wants it to fly and open like the one she demo'd. Rock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 Next Page 2 of 3 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. 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andrewstewart 0 #30 December 20, 2003 QuoteDitto what Diablopilot said. A collapsible PC should have zero effect on how a canopy opens. It collaspes as the canopy comes out of the bag. Derek Ditto? What you are saying contradicts what he was saying... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #31 December 20, 2003 Quoteand two staged. I always thought that a canopy opening had a few more steps then that (that we can percieve as jumpers). 1. Snatch force 2. Snivel 3. Opening shock/final opening The Cobalt I jumped was "two staged." You tossed your PC then you had an instant fully inflated canopy over your head. Digital, 1, 0. What was I told to do to "fix" my opening problems (by a very senior person at Atair)? 1. Get a PC that my container manufacture didn't recommend 2. Do about 10 different packing tricks (not at once, try one then the other on different jumps till one worked). 3. Double stow small rubber bands. I was not impressed. I bought a canopy that opened nice and flew very nice (Heatwave). Now I'm awaiting the arrival of a canopy that I couldn't get to open poorly and flies even better (Xfire2). I guess you can say, in the end, my experience with Atair and their Cobalts was very bad (worst opening of my life, I had to fight to keep from passing out after opening). Even more so that I was told to do things by the company that contradicted what the riggers I know said to be true, what I knew to be true and what my container manufacture said to be true.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
imdskydiver 0 #32 December 20, 2003 ***So, were you not impressed with the way it extracted the bag?...or the way it fit in the pocket? I did not like the way it fit in the pocket ,I tried the 22" a few times and did not notice any difference in the way my canopy opened , I was uncomfortable it so i switched back to the one that came with my Mirage , Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #33 December 20, 2003 QuoteDitto what Diablopilot said. A collapsible PC should have zero effect on how a canopy opens. It collaspes as the canopy comes out of the bag. Derek -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ditto? What you are saying contradicts what he was saying... Diablopilot said to get the PC the container manufacturer recommends, not what the canopy manufacturer recommends. -Diablopilot correct me if I am wrong. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #34 December 20, 2003 You're correct, we're in agreement on this one.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lopullterri 0 #35 December 21, 2003 I , too, did not like the way the larger p/c fit in the BOC, so for over 500 jumps used a smaller, zero-p pilot chute. Had approx. 3 second hesitation on a regular basis. Not enough to bother me, since I was always opening high (tandem video). Wouldn't recommend it, though. Should probably use what the container manufacturer says to use.~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #36 December 21, 2003 Quote I always thought that a canopy opening had a few more steps then that (that we can percieve as jumpers). 1. Snatch force 2. Snivel 3. Opening shock/final opening You can break down openings into a lot more steps than that. Two stage refers specifically to cell inflation. A good Cobalt will experience center 3 cells inflating first, then the outer 3 on each side. Note that I said a *good* Cobalt. Unfortunately, some do have problems that don't seem to respond well to simple fixes like smaller pilot chutes and tighter line stows. ATAIR is not the first, nor the last to have such troubles, though that won't provide much solace if you get a bad one. The Sabre was notorious for hard openings. I spent a couple of days on a couch with ice on my neck. PD never acknowledged that the Sabre had any design problems, and PD is widely regarded as the best manufacturer out there. Another manufacturer recently had quality control problems with it's reserves. (yikes!) IIRC, Triathlons were pretty inconsistent when they were first produced. Quite a few blew up on opening. The AR 11 had similar problems. The Crossfire killed a few people before they fixed its design flaw. I found the Heatwave to be a mediocre Stiletto clone, with an even shorter recovery arc, and decidedly less bottom end flair than either the Cobalt or the Crossfire. So you have to turn pretty low to get a fun landing out of a Heatwave, but hook it too low and you might not have enough flair to bail out of the dive and walk away. Unlike the other examples, this isn't really a design flaw, but does illustrate how much of canopy choice is personal preference. Quote 1. Get a PC that my container manufacture didn't recommend I suspect that the container manufacturers are being excessively conservative to cover their buts, not unlike the "maximum" wingloadings recomendations that are routinely ignored by anyone with more than a few hundred jumps. The fact is that a properly closed container won't require more than 10-15 LBS of force to open the container. Even a 20" PC provides far more drag than that. Given that the jumper in question already has a Cobalt, I stand by my recomendations regarding PC size, closing loop length, and PC pouch concerns. Hopefully that will make for good openings, in which case, I've no doubt that they'll love their Cobalt. If it's still a problem, that's another issue, but hardly one that's unique to ATAIR products. One last thing: Performance Designs literature supports my contention that PC size affects opening speed. I'm inclined to trust their opinion on that issue. YMMV. -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cloud9 0 #37 December 21, 2003 This amazes me cause up front I admit I know nothing about these things. With that said just a little and very little common sense will tell you that the manufacture of a rig has not, can not and will not ever test that rig with every canopy out there. With that said how the hell would they know what's the best PC for a given canopy? On the other hand a canopy manufacturer can and usally does check out their canopy with many variables in pilot chutes. The container manufacturer is at best a generic fit all. The canopy manufacturer has at least probably tested what they are saying. So with just a little common sense a container manufacturer's recommendation will probably work, a canopy's manufacturer recommendation will probably work better. Common sense! It would be really foolish to say a certain size pilot chute works better with a given container no matter what main, no sense at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #38 December 21, 2003 QuoteThe fact is that a properly closed container won't require more than 10-15 LBS of force to open the container. Even a 20" PC provides far more drag than that. I know for a fact, after many a PC in tow, that a 20-inch PC does not produce enough drag to open a properly closed container. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
imdskydiver 0 #39 December 21, 2003 I questioned the people at Mirage about a smaller P/C, They told me that they use a P/C that will extract "all" canopy's from their container ,They also seemed to be worried that i might re sell my container with the smaller P/C to someone that did not know better and then have an accident with it , so i guess in the end they are more worried about potential law Suites that what will work best with a Cobalt. At least that was the impression that i got from them , Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
3ringheathen 0 #40 December 21, 2003 Quote I know for a fact, after many a PC in tow, that a 20-inch PC does not produce enough drag to open a properly closed container. What kind and how old of a container? Kill line or bungy? What brand of PC? How many jumps on the PC? -Josh If you have time to panic, you have time to do something more productive. -Me* *Ron has accused me of plagiarizing this quote. He attributes it to Douglas Adams. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #41 December 21, 2003 QuoteWhat kind and how old of a container? 2001 Micron 304, VX-60 main. QuoteKill line or bungy? Kill line QuoteWhat brand of PC? Cazer, ZP QuoteHow many jumps on the PC? Brand new PC Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JYorkster 0 #42 December 21, 2003 Ok, she got three jumps on it today...here's the details... Jump #1, Mirage G4, 24 in Cazer ZP PC - SLAM! Ok, maybe a fluke, so we'll try again.... Jump #2, Same setup - SLAM! Ok, not doin' that again...SO, we put the canopy in her old container set up EXACTLY the same as the demo she tried and liked...Dolphin, 24 in Cazer ZP PC - SLAM! Looks like we may have gotten one of the 'bad' Cobalts. I'll be talking to Atair on Monday. I'll keep ya posted. Rock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #43 December 21, 2003 Quote some do have problems that don't seem to respond well to simple fixes like smaller pilot chutes and tighter line stows. Ok, "smaller PC" according to all of those around me and in the industry (except for Atair), the smaller PC would result in PC hesitation (in the least, PC in tow at the worst). The "tighter" line stows that was recommended (double stowing small rubber bands) would quite possibly resulted in a bag lock. There's a problem when every other canopy on the market of the same type opens perfectly with the PC that the container manufacture recommends and with small rubber bands single stowed, but this canopy has to have these two things different (dangerous) to fix its openings. QuoteA good Cobalt will experience center 3 cells inflating first, then the outer 3 on each side. So does just about every other canopy on the market today. The center cell inflates and the canopy inflates outward. I can't tell you the number of times that I've seen a Sabre2 open so soft that it has collapsed endcells. I guess that'd be called a "2 stage opening" as well. QuoteThe Sabre was notorious for hard openings. I spent a couple of days on a couch with ice on my neck. PD never acknowledged that the Sabre had any design problems, and PD is widely regarded as the best manufacturer out there. Another manufacturer recently had quality control problems with it's reserves. (yikes!) IIRC, Triathlons were pretty inconsistent when they were first produced. Quite a few blew up on opening. The AR 11 had similar problems. The Crossfire killed a few people before they fixed its design flaw. I don't remember any of them recommending to change a piece of equipment that is out of the realm and into the container manufacture's realm, though. Eitherway, the Cobalt has been produced for a good number of years (since the Space), seems like the opening problems would have been fixed instead of "bandaged" by now. Quoteyou have to turn pretty low to get a fun landing out of a Heatwave Eh, not really. I have to turn lower on the Stiletto I'm jumping now of the same size to get as good of a swoop. With the Heatwave I was jumping, I'd toss out a 270 at about 450ft. That's not too much lower then with the Xfire2 I was jumping or the Cobalt I demoed a while back. Only about 100ft, max.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #44 December 21, 2003 Before you throw the canopy away, try some things. When i got my cobalt competition. (luckily from Stane) he said that this canopy is sent back from US because it has hard openings, and if i'd like to try it, i can. so i did take it. i had about 10 slammers on that canopy. but when i figured the packing i got only 1 slammer on every 5 jumps. what i did was that i pushed the nose in as far as i could, pulled the slider out in front about 2-3 ", and rolled the tail really tight. after you do that you have to be really careful to put the canopy down and in the bag without changing the packing much. sure 1 slammer of 5 is barely enough. so i went to stane and he gave me the domed slider. it's not a slider with pocket but it's shape is different. it's not flat it's domed, somewhat like a baloon if you cut it in half. when i put that slider up, i got nothing but good openings. after that, if i packed the canopy neatly and carefully i got up to 6seconds long opening (it's on camera) and not just sniveling. sniveling was about 3s and 3s it took to spread out the canopy, so no snatch force at the end. if i trash packed the canopy (without pushing the nose in, or pulling the slider out,...) it opens in about 3-4 seconds (not a slammer) So if you really like how the canopy flies, try at least that things i did. after that you'll love the openings too. If cobaltdan can't/won't provide those things, send me a PM and i'll gave you the phone number of someone who will - Atair in Slovenia (customer service is almost perfect)"George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #45 December 21, 2003 QuoteOk, "smaller PC" according to all of those around me and in the industry (except for Atair), the smaller PC would result in PC hesitation (in the least, PC in tow at the worst). The "tighter" line stows that was recommended (double stowing small rubber bands) would quite possibly resulted in a bag lock. Double wrapping rubber bands, large or small and/or a very small PC are both very bad recommendations for the reason AggieDave said. I experimented with small PC's (24-inch down to 20-inch) and eventually got tired of reaching back and pulling the pin. My one and only bag lock was on a tandem that someone had double wrapped the rubber bands on. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #46 December 21, 2003 I am quite sure with the just right pack job and the just right pilot chute and you can't forget the just right pull position you can get most any Cobalt to open nice. I am also pretty sure that after openning they are a good canopy, but in my opinion if you there is no reason to have a canopy that needs that much special attention in order to get good opennings. There are alot of great canopies out there that do not require a degree from the how to fix a canopy that opens really hard in order to get great opennings. OH to Jyokster have you tried openning in a track. That I believe is one of their fixs for their problem canopy along with the smaller pilot chute and the just right packing. Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JYorkster 0 #47 December 21, 2003 Thanks for the tips. I'll talk to Atair on Monday and see what they say as well. I also believe that with just the right combination of packing 'tricks' and the right alignment of the planets that we could get a softer opening. However, the fact remains that we used NONE of those tricks on the one she demo'd, and it opened very nicely. There shouldn't be that much variation in canopies of the exact same model and size. Talonsky - I also read the recommendation to "open in a track" to get a softer opening. Based on the bruises/soreness my wife has now, going up again and opening in a track is NOT an option. I'm not sure what laws of physics Atair is using to come up with that approach. Bottom line, you shouldn't have to 'trick' the canopy into opening soft, and resale canopies should open/fly like the demos. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TALONSKY 0 #48 December 21, 2003 I totally agree. From what I have read about Atair canopies is they have some issues where one will open great and the next will slam you. I do not know if you have tried a Crossfire but they are a really great canopy. They open softly and fly very nice with a huge flare power band. The Crossfire 2's are even more incredible. Wish you well Kirk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grega 0 #49 December 21, 2003 i smell cobalt accusing again Ehm i think you missed something Quote if i trash packed the canopy (without pushing the nose in, or pulling the slider out,...) it opens in about 3-4 seconds (not a slammer) 3-4 seconds opening are loooong. look some videos and count the seconds. 3-4 second openings are soft openings. And as i said, when i got the domed slider, i didn't have to be precise any more. I can trash pack it and it still opens nicely. So no more nice openings in just the right configuration, but nice openings in almost all configurations. Cobalt is a more or less HP canopy. Same like at all HP canopies, you sacrifice freedom of doing as you like for joy and speed. Small HP canopies don't forgive as much as the bigger square one do. and you have to play by the rules to survive when flying/opening HP canopies. if you don't like the rules, get a 7 cell loaded 1.0 :1 at most. with that you can virtually open on your back and it will open nicely, probably a little harder, but you'll survive. Anyway you can start accusing cobalt and the usual, i said what i had in mind. Go on and make cobalt look a bad canopy with bad openings, like the conversation about cobalt usually ends, though mine opens and flies great. Again i'm sorry if you'll despair over such a great canopy after 3 or a little more jumps. oh BTW i don't have any special configuration. like i said at the start, i have mirage g4, with 28" f-111 PC and cobalt comp. 120. and it opens almost too nice (i'm not lying !) p.s.: You have to earn the love of cobalt , i guess i did "George just lucky i guess!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JYorkster 0 #50 December 21, 2003 Please don't misunderstand...I'm not trying to Cobalt bash... I personally loved the way the demo I tried opened and flew. My wife felt the same way, that's why we ordered her one. I also agree that three openings may be too few to judge the canopy on. However, she was almost knocked unconscious three times in a row. I'm not sure how much more 'testing' she can handle to get this thing 'dialed in'. She's loading it very lightly (1.2/1), so there should be no reason for openings THAT hard. Anyway, not really bashing..just passing along the facts. We are hoping it all gets resolved. She just wants it to fly and open like the one she demo'd. Rock Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
