What are your thoughts about the sorcerer.

[drenaline 0]

Its the Base rig with reserve, do you think its useful or not and why?

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[Sonic 0]

There was a guy at our dz who's got about 300 base jumps - he said he wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

From the CR website:

Quote

Q: Why jump with just one parachute?

A: Jumping with one parachute is a personal decision. The basic philosophy behind this choice is that most BASE jumps are effectively one parachute jumps anyway due to either a lack of available altitude or the intentional plan to freefall through what altitude may be available for a reserve deployment. The thought then follows that it is preferable to use a system designed and manufactured to deploy only a single parachute and is therefor inherently less comlpex (safer) than a system that is designed to accommodate two parachutes. There is also the human factor to consider. If you have only one parachute you will plan and act accordingly. If you have second parachute you may not exercise the same level of caution. However, some jumps are better suited to two parachute systems. Make an informed and thoughtful decision. Feel free to contact Consolidated Rigging with any questions you may have.

-----------------------------------
It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone

[cpoxon 0]

Quote

There was a guy at our dz who's got about 300 base jumps

Is that Andy?

Quote

- he said he wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

Unless that's an opinion you can back up with reason I don't think you should be perpetuating it.

The CR quote is very valid though

[Sonic 0]

Gianni asked for opinions - as I don't have any base jumps, i'm just giving him an opinion.

And it's not Andy.

-----------------------------------
It's like something out of that twilighty show about that zone

[base689 0]

Quote

Its the Base rig with reserve, do you think its useful or not and why?

I state in advance (I never jumped a Sorcerer but I have Sorcerer packing video and I have seen Sorcerer's and know a friend who jumps Sorcerer (but this chap only jumps terminal walls...)) that I think that Sorcerer is a state of the art BASE rig, incredibly well thought and incredibly well designed and manufactured. But Sorcerer is a very complicated piece of BASE equipment indeed. By very complicated I mean: it is not easy to assemble properly, it is not easy to pack a canopy into it (consider that into a Sorcerer you have 5 layers of canopy while on a single-parachute rig you have only 3 layers, so the parachute into a Sorcerer is way more "squeezed" than into a single-parachute rig)) and finally it is not easy at all made your mind up to its proper use: if you DO have a reserve, you MUST be mentally prepared to "do-what-in-case-of-what-malfunction": not easy indeed.
Said the above, I try to explain why 95% of worldwide BASE jumpers use single-parachute systems for BASE jumping.
And, by the way, as "BASE jump", do you mean "low" BASE jump of "high" BASE jump?
Let us consider for the moment "low" BASE jump (for "low" being BASE jumps off objects in the 300ft-91m ÷ 500ft-152m range). Well, in such jumps, considering jumping a Sorcerer, it is very unlikely that in case of a total malfunction: 1) you realize you are having a total and 2) you deploy the reserve and 3) you deploy the reserve in a manner you can walk away with it.
Let us consider now "high" BASE jump (for "high" being BASE jumps off objects in the +1150ft-350m (or so) range). In such jumps, considering jumping a Sorcerer, consider that you can: 1) deploy your (main) parachute quite high above ground in order that in case of malfunction: 1.1: total: you can deploy directly your reserve; 1.2: partial: you can cutaway and deploy the reserve (that deploys quite fast(=in short altitude)) and ride safely to landing: in this case, jumping a Sorcerer is a very good idea; 2) deploy your (main) parachute so close to ground to re-enter into the category of "low" BASE jumps, and so, see above (=uselessness of having a reserve on your back...).
Now, what type of BASE jumps do you do regularly? Only terminal walls? Then possibly the Sorcerer is the BASE rig for you (provided that you are very WELL trained indeed: to assemble it; to use it; to pack it and to know very well indeed ALL its possible uses and do's and dont's)
Do you jump regularly at the same percentage both low objects and terminal walls? Maybe more low objects than terminal walls? With a Sorcerer you CAN jump also low objects (in my country, a brass ones jumper jumped a 246 ft - 75 m building with a Sorcerer (but that was the only systems he owned at the time...), but I don't see why jumping a double parachute system in those cases (and could be the 90% of your jumps) in which having a reserve is completely useless (no time/altitude to deploy the reserve) and only add complexity to the system.
Consider also, in real cases and in real BASE world scenarios, that, even if the Sorcerer's reserve opens in very short altitude/time, in case of partial malfunctionings (=line twists, for example) it not so "easy" to cutaway and deploy the reserve, if you consider that you are quite close to the wall, you are spinning under your main, you quickly cutaway deploying automatically the reserve (it is so the the dual parachute system works and this is why it opens in such a short altitude/time): guess what? Your reserve opens in a line twist fashion (it is obvious: your main is spinning, the "attached-to-the-risers" reserve free bag leaves the container still spinning... you got the point?) and so you are left with the original problem (=being VERY close to a wall with a spinning parachute).
On the other hand, a single-parachute BASE rig, yes, has ONLY ONE parachute, but it is WAY simpler, it is WAY simpler to assemble it, to operate it, to be mentally trained to use it (= no need to cutaway, do not even think about it!!!), to pack the canopy. The parachute is WAY cleaner packed into a single-parachute BASE rig (only 3 layer of cloth compared to the 5 layers of a Sorcerer). Furthermore, single-parachute BASE rigs have a very good reputation for working properly (even if this year there has been one case of a total with a single-parachute BASE rig, quite unexplainable, but unlucky events can happen even if you use all your possible care...) and so very few BASE jumpers feel the need of having a reserve on their backs.
I am not an expert neither an authority but I hope to have explained why only 5% (or so...) of worldwide BASE jumpers uses a Sorcerer BASE rig.
In fact, I belong to the 95% (or so...) of BASE jumpers who use a single-parachute BASE rig.
In BASE, simplicity is the key word. If it's simple, it's hard to confuse or misroute or misdo.
Just my 0.02€.

Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com

[Cajones 0]

It's a very kewl machine. It has the potential to save your arse in a bad position. It also has the potential for bad juju. The best advise I'd offer - talk to the people at CR. They're going to have questions about what you like to jump (what objects) and other relevant issues.

It seems those that jump the Sorcerer love it, and those that don't hate it. A canopy transfer is pretty amazing on one, but if I've got a good canopy over my head - I'd rather keep it there.

The laws of physics are strictly enforced.

[base689 0]

Quote

It seems those that jump the Sorcerer love it, and those that don't hate it.

No, I love Sorcerer. As I wrote above, I think Sorcerer is a state of the art BASE rig, a really outstanding piece of equipment. I would jump a Sorcerer (if I had the chance) any time from any altitude I regularly jump (I own and jump a one-pin single-parachute BASE rig).
But for my type of jumping (70% of low objects), I personally consider the complexity of Sorcerer is not worth the benefits (=nearly zero for low objects) it can give me.
Consider also that now I regularly jump A, low A's (in the 100m-328ft range). Now, try to imagine what it means to climb into the narrow (protected) ladder of A's with such a large and heavy burden that gives me NO additional improvement about safety in my jump... I say again, I love Sorcerer, but I do not see any point in having ONLY additional complexity and "cumbersome-movements" and nothing more to my BASE equipment...
Still, it is a fact and not an opinion that 5% of BASE jumpers owns and jumps a Sorcerer and 95% of BASE jumpers owns and jumps a single-parachute rig.
That must mean something. Perhaps BASE jumpers elige to jump a Sorcerer only when the plus's are more than the minus's (basically, I think they are 99% terminal wall jumpers or so...). For low object BASE jumpers, a Sorcerer only adds weight, volume and complexity to the jump.
Just my 0.02€.

Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com

[base698 19]

Are there really any malfunctions that could happen with a single parachute rig that can't be corrected to the point you'd need to pull your reserve? Aside from the freaky one at that bridge out west? Lineover ->hookknife, 180 -> rear risers, 180 with linetwists -> hope you can get to the lines above the twists.

[basehoundsam 0]

I own a sorceror and jump it regularly under all conditions.I agree, it is not ideal for slider down. I spend a lot of time in Moab. Having said that, it is an amazing machine. I think a lot of jumpers would rather buy two rigs for the same price as the sorceror. Yes it is a bit bulky, but it really gives your head warm fuzzy's to know you have a useable second. A few fatalities that "may" have been avoided if they had a spare canopy...... Jan Davis..... and Lukas Knutson....

In the end it is all purely personal choice. I also own a gargoyle... and my new "Merlin"(Wingsuit Specific rig) from Vertigo should bee here any day. It is definitely different to pack a sorceror(for me it's 4 folds instead of 3), but I have had very good on heading performance under my sorceror.
My buddy owns one also..... it's all he owns...... and he has about 500 jumps on the system, with about 8-10 intentional cut aways...... two under 300 feet. He has never had a 180 or anything even close.
As far as a learning tool..... I think it does a great job for people with low experience on slider up jumps. I did my first couple bird BASE jumps with this setup..... and I must say it gave me a little more confidence knowing I had two canopies back there.

Jay E.

p.s. come join the "ROCK DROP FLOCK!!!"

Jay Epstein Ramirez
www.adrenalineexploits.com

[base689 0]

Quote

Lineover ->hookknife...

Lineover ->hookknife... ...or... using WLO riser/toggle system by Vertigo, by which you can clear the offending line WITHOUT cutting anything physically but simply releasing (with one-hand-operation) the line from the toggle.

Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com

[motherhucker 0]

Quote

The best advise I'd offer - talk to the people at CR.

That's good advice...Adam & Marty know their shit, but the Sorcerer is manufactured by Vertigo. I'd give Marta and Jimmy a call in Moab. 435.259.1085.
out,
the huck

[freeflir29 0]

Excellent info. Thanks......I was just coming to this forum to start a thread on the Sorcerer and Voila. It's already here. I guess I see the points being made but I have been told it only takes about 50Ft or less to go from one canopy to the other. I can't really see the arguments having any validity on anything other than the very lowest jumps. ~120 Ft or less. Hmmm....I guess I'll keep a watch on this thread.

[drenaline 0]

Quote

I have been told it only takes about 50Ft or less to go from one canopy to the other.

Yeah but remember the time it takes you to evaluate, think, reach and do the reserve pull. Now thinking about it, maybe some hesitation may happen like ie. the people that hesitate to pull reserve and go for the main when they are low.

HISPA 21
www.panamafreefall.com

[basehoundsam 0]

Yeah but remember what its like to not have an option... you simply go in....pro's and con's.... overall personally I think it's a great learning tool. If it saves one person.... it was worth it for them to have the two canopies on their back. It really comes down to........ are you opening at least 200 ft off the ground.... and are you willing to pay/ lug two canopies up everything you climb???
It's a personal choice.... but the whole evaluate, think, reach choice..... well after something goes wrong on a terminal jump, lets say a line over. At least after evaluating, I have a choice as to what I reach for, I can reach for a riser, I can cut away the brake line with the WLO toggles, I can chop the canopy and hope for the best. At least even if I come out of spining crap, I still have a second canopy instantly over my head. Or on a Birdbase.... where my main p.c. sits in my verbal and turns into a knot. At least there's a second p.c. you can throw out ... as low as 150 ft that will still save you....Bird-BASE goes real real slow. If you have a total mal... no matter how unlikely it is...... you have the distinct pleasure of riding it in from 1000 ft for about 10-12 seconds.... knowing the whole time...............................................................................................................................................





you wish you had another p.c. to throw out......




just my .02 cents.... I personally jump my single canopy rigs..... even slider up .... most of the time....... but some nights.... on less than ideal conditions....... my sorceror still gives me warm fuzzies on the slider up stuff....

Jay E.
www.adrenalineexploits.com

Jay Epstein Ramirez
www.adrenalineexploits.com

[TomAiello 26]

I wrote this in the "First BASE Rig" article. For convenience, I've reproduced my thoughts here.

***Option: Sorceror
The Sorcerer is a two parachute BASE container manufactured by Vertigo BASE outfitters of Moab, Utah. Although some skydivers will like the extra confidence of a second canopy, the truth is that the Sorcerer is really an advanced trick rig. Advancing technology has made BASE gear so reliable (statistically more reliable than skydiving reserves), that adding a second canopy really gives very little additional insurance. In addition, the two canopy system is a poor choice for beginners because (a) it makes them less likely to pay the proper level of attention (meticulous) to their pack job, (b) it may make them overconfident, even in situations where the Sorcerer's second canopy (which deploys admirably quickly, in less than 150' under ideal conditions) will have insufficient altitude to inflate, (c) the system is more complex, and a beginner should use the simplest system possible, (d) it is cumbersome to carry around a second canopy you never use, and (e) The extra bulk of large canopies tends to make most Sorcerer jumpers use canopies that are significantly undersized for BASE landing areas, which could be a very costly and injurious problem for a beginner. Note that some skydivers may feel that having a "reserve" is worth the cost. However, the second canopy on a Sorcerer is no more a "reserve" than the first. Any BASE system, properly assembled, maintained, and packed, will open more reliably and consistently than any skydiving reserve system. Jumping a Sorcerer isn't like having a reserve-it's like having two reserves. Save the Sorcerer for advanced trick jumps (like BASE fun-aways), when you are more experienced. For now, stick with a standard BASE system.

[CrazyThomas 0]

Great rig! What a concept! I had one for 4 jumps, and it made me feel MUCH better about my ten minute "psycho slam" pack jobs. knowing that I had a reserve, even if I was the one who packed it, it was a second chance. I jumped it only from high altitudes, where I deployed with sufficient height to deploy the reserve if needed. Not a toy for beginners though. oh wait, what am I? I guess with less than 100 BASE jumps, I am still a low timer.
Good thing I got it stolen from me. Now I can just wait to buy a new, ONE canopy BASE rig.
Peace,
Thomas