Swanee 0 #1 December 21, 2003 I have an old 252 foil, converted to split slider. For many jumps, the canopy has opened in a stall, and has given me quite a violent ride until I get the brakes off. I recently lengthened the brake settings by 4 inches, without much improvement, I have lengthened them by another 2 inches, and it still appears to be opening in a stall. Am I on the right track, or should I also be looking at something else? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #2 December 21, 2003 Find the stall point in flight and compare it to where your brakes are set, that should tell you something shouldn't it? GusOutpatientsOnline.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swanee 0 #3 December 21, 2003 Thanks for suggestion. Interestingly, it doesn't stall in flight if I pull the toggles down to the brake setting, even the old settings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Danne 0 #4 December 21, 2003 Did you replace the lines? I am wondering this since there are usualy not a lot of inches left to lengthen the lines above the brake loop. Or did you just lengthen below the brake loop? Then the brake setting will be the same and you have won nothing, execpt having to flare deeper upon landing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #5 December 21, 2003 Have you checked line trim? I haven't heard of a canopy having opening in a stall problems before due to line trim, but you never know...wouldn't hurt to do a "field check" to them.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #6 December 21, 2003 Where did you lengthen the lines? Above the cat's eye or did you adjust the lower breaks? IF the canopy is opening in a stall you need to lengthen the upper break lines, the ones running to the casdaded breaks. If you have'nt done this yet, adjust that and take the lowers back to their original settings.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swanee 0 #7 December 22, 2003 The lower control lines are one continuous length. I daisy chain them to set the brakes. There is no cat's eye. The toggles are set so that I can stall the canopy in flight at full arm extension. The brakes have been set as much as 18" above the toggle. Currently they are set at 12" above the toggle. A good idea to check the line trim. The canopy flies beautifully..it's just the openings! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
roq 0 #8 December 22, 2003 In accuracy parafoils the point of stall the brake point need with hands to close in hips place. For good opennings you need to put the brake point in control lines no more 10 centimeters up to point of full flight (for toggles to close in hips place) or same in full flight. If you put the brake point more than 10 cm up your opennings will happen in partial stall with big balance for back and front Roq Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DALAILAMA 0 #9 December 22, 2003 Swanee, Ther are alot of good suggestions on why your foil stalls on this site unfortunately the foil isn't like other parachutes and the suggestions do not exactly tell you why. I think I can help you with your problem. I have a little over 3,000 jumps on parafoils and was the team leader of the Golden knights style and accuracy team. If you look up, at your fully open foil, you can see that it is wider at the tail than the nose. The foil wasn't meant to be jumped with a split slider, it performs best with a russian slider. The smaller (split) slider when pulled up pulls the tail to the center over twice as much as the nose not allowing for a symetrical opening. The foil is also designed to open in a bit of a slow flight mode(not a stall) due to the massive nose size. (from bottom skin to the protruding top skin) If it did not open tail down (aka...in a stall) the openings would make you wish that you were jumping a round. So realistically your canopy should be in a bit of a slow flight mode. If you still don't feel comfortable about the openings, then while your canopy is flying into the wind on light wind conditions start pulling your toggles down very very slowly until your canopy begins comming straight down. this is your transition point....stall is a bad word with any accuracy canopies! Look where your control lines pass through the guide ring for the brake settings. the distance you have the toggles pulled down should not exceed this length when setting the brakes. Good luck with your foil and I hope you enjoy it. P.S. When you get harrassed about jumping it at your DZ from the jumpers jumping the smaller swoop canopies, just tell them that anyone can go fast but it takes great patients,skill, and focus to land on a 3cm. dot over and over again."Dropzone.com, where uneducated people measuring penises, has become an art form" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swanee 0 #10 December 24, 2003 I am getting some great info here! What is a Russian Slider? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DALAILAMA 0 #11 December 26, 2003 A russian slider is a modified slider usually twice the size of normal sliders. Instead of normal gromets built into the slider, The russian sliders use d-ring type hardware for gromets. The russian slider also sometimes has a lip which when packing the parafoil is used to completely hide the nose and block the intake of air. I have a parafoil 282 and the measurments on my slider are approximately 24" x 24" with the lip sewed onto the slider it is 24" x 48"! The measurments are correct, the slider is 2 ft. x 4 ft. I can take my foil terminal anytime and I do all the time. When I jump into demos with the Golden Knight demonstration teams, I always jump my foil. I can put my foil into any demo and land wherever I want. The openings are beautiful they are slower than any stiletto or velocity. I sometimes doubt taking it out under 2,500ft. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!"Dropzone.com, where uneducated people measuring penises, has become an art form" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swanee 0 #12 December 26, 2003 Thanks very much for all this info. I note that Para Gear has a "D ring slider with lip" for Parafoil in their catalog. This sounds very much like what you are talking about and sounds like the possible solution to my problem. I was getting suspicious that brake settings were not the problem. I really love jumping the foil, but the bad openings take a lot of the fun out of getting out low! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DALAILAMA 0 #13 December 27, 2003 The foils are strange beasts, sometimes they wil not want to open and sometimes you wish they hadn't opened. If every parachute opened like a parafoil I bet there would be a few less skydivers in the sport. Then again there may be more! it's kind of hard to hook yourself in with a foil! Good luck with your endevors and with your openings. If you have trouble with Lowel Bachman at Paragear then try Johnny Higgins at North American the maker of the foil, he should be able to hook you up! Blue Skies!"Dropzone.com, where uneducated people measuring penises, has become an art form" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #14 December 27, 2003 Dailailama, Thanks for the slider dimensions. However we were hoping that you could give riggers a more practical dimension like: "pack with tail X number of inches above A line attachment points." Please? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DALAILAMA 0 #15 December 31, 2003 Rob, Sorry I didn't get back with you sooner, I had the in-laws in town. I understand your question unfortunately, not every brake setting is the same for every foil. There is no correct answer as far as exact measurments. It is completely dependent on size of canopy as compared to jumper weight, ie, wing loading. The lighter the individual, the deeper the brake setting due to the amount of input it takes to stop the canopy. I can tell you that I jump a 282 and my exit weight is approx. 200 lbs I do not have my foil at home it is at work and as soon as I get the chance I will measure the exact setting. Have a happy New Year, Greg"Dropzone.com, where uneducated people measuring penises, has become an art form" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swanee 0 #16 December 31, 2003 Just to follow up I have spoken to North American Aerodynamics (Kathy Martin was the person I spoke to) and I have a D-ring lipped slider on the way. They gave me 3 slider options (split, D ring, D ring lipped) and recommended the lipped as most suitable for my needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DALAILAMA 0 #17 December 31, 2003 Excellent! I know you will love it. I am serious when I say that my foil sometimes opens slower than a stiletto or a velocity. Give me a call if you need anything else or help with packing. Good luck and Happy New Year!"Dropzone.com, where uneducated people measuring penises, has become an art form" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Swanee 0 #18 January 15, 2004 Well, the new slider from NAA has arrived, and it's a monster! It's actually not rectangular, but trapeziodal. It's aprox 25" wide at the non lipped end and approx 30" wide at the lipped end. The lip is pocketed and is 3 feet long! Just checking, how should this all be oriented when installing? Also, the Foil currently has reefing rings on the stabilzers to act as slider stops. The D rings on the new slider will not stop at the reefing rings. Is this going to be a problem? Swanee Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #19 January 15, 2004 Install your new slider so that the lip is at the front with the pockets opening downwards so they catch the maximum amount of air. Also ask a second person - ideally a rigger - to do a line continuity check before you pack it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
