caerdydd 0 #1 March 19, 2003 I go around 190lbs. Around 210lbs with clothing, armor, and rig. I fly a Mojo 280, and I love it. At 210lbs, that's exactly a 0.75 wing loading. Now, if I was in the market for a new canopy, I'd be looking at CR 280's (Mojo, ACE, BJ); Fox 285, FLiK 293... but would I really be looking at a Troll 265? Dan from Atair would say yes, Robert from Morpheus would say maybe not, and the literature out there seems to conflict. So, what's the story? Do you REALLY need a size smaller with a Troll? Or would you go with the same kinda size as other canopies? I DO NOT want to wind up flying the equivalent of a 310!! The whole "stabilizers included in the measurement" thing doesn't seem to add up. Gravity: it's not just a good idea... it's the law. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dd0g 0 #2 March 19, 2003 I am jumping a Troll 290 right now (w/ MDV). With all due respect, Robert is correct on the sizing decisions. The 290 Troll is similar in size, flight characteristics, and pack volume to a 285 Fox. Due to the valves, it packs a bit "bigger" than a Mojo 280, but is otherwise a similarly-sized canopy. If you are used to a 280 Mojo, then you'd be stepping down in size to go to a 265 Troll. Additionally, even with the valves, the vents will make a similarly-sized canopy fly a bit "smaller" in terms of flare stroke. I've done some pretty technical jumping on the 290 Troll during the last few weeks, and I am happy with its performance so far. In terms of pressurization, it is probably the most solid canopy I've jumped in a slider-down setting. I am still playing with the toggle settings - and possibly tweaking the upper control line configuration - to get maximum maneuverability out of the canopy for really tight landings. In terms of flare, it's comparable to a new Mojo 280 - good, powerful, and functional from even half brakes for someone of my body size (215 without clothes or gear). The valves are trick; glide ratio is exceptional. Overall workmanship is really nice, lots of little touches that show the care going into the canopy. Anyway, I don't know what's up with the "stabilizers included in measurement" stuff, either. . . but I know from firsthand experience that a 290 Troll is exactly the size I'd expect from a. . . 290 canopy. Peace, D-d0g+~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #3 March 19, 2003 QuoteThe 290 Troll is similar in size...and pack volume to a 285 Fox. My experience mirrors this, that the Troll 290 is of similar pack volume to the 285 FOX. The better glide and stronger flare (hence softer landings) make it seem to "fly bigger" by a bit, though. I'd definitely prefer my Troll 290 to a 285 FOX for bad landing areas. I'd also prefer it to a 285 FOX Vtec (i.e. vented) in that situation. I would definitely not agree, however, that the flight characteristics of the Troll 290 and FOX 285 are terribly similar. I've found the Troll to have both greater available forward speed (useful when fighting wind) and lower minimum (sink) speed than the FOX. Note that I have not jumped a 285 FOX Vtec With Covers (i.e. valved). Quote...290 Troll...In terms of pressurization, it is probably the most solid canopy I've jumped in a slider-down setting. Um, I'm pretty sure you meant Troll 290 MDV. Can you clarify? While I'm pretty sure that I know when you are talking valved, when you are talking vented, and when you are talking none of the above, your post isn't very clear in that regard. It might help some beginners if we tried to keep clear which canopy variant we are discussing.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #4 March 19, 2003 For Troll questions, I'd go with answers from Robert Jones (robert@baserigs.com), or Stane Krajnic (spelling on last name?) (atair@k2.net). Robert Pecnik (robert@bird-man.com) is also an extremely good source of information on the canopy (he's one of the primary test jumpers). I have found Dan to be extremely knowledgeable on aerodynamics, canopy flight, and skydiving (and especially the Cobalt), but for BASE questions I'd go to the people in the organization who spend more of their time and energy on BASE jumping. Why don't you just phone Morpheus and ask for a Troll 290 demo, then phone CR, BR and Vertigo and get canopies from them as well? I've found most manufacturers more than willing to send out demo canopies, and jumping the thing for a weekend is probably the best way to know how it will perform for you.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dd0g 0 #5 March 20, 2003 Quote I would definitely not agree, however, that the flight characteristics of the Troll 290 and FOX 285 are terribly similar. I've found the Troll to have both greater available forward speed (useful when fighting wind) and lower minimum (sink) speed than the FOX. Oh, sorry - didn't mean to directly compare flight characteristics as such. Rather, trying to compare flight "feeling" based on approximate equal size. Yes, the Troll fiies different than a Fox in some ways, and like it in others. QuoteQuote...290 Troll...In terms of pressurization, it is probably the most solid canopy I've jumped in a slider-down setting. Um, I'm pretty sure you meant Troll 290 MDV. Can you clarify? While I'm pretty sure that I know when you are talking valved, when you are talking vented, and when you are talking none of the above, your post isn't very clear in that regard. It might help some beginners if we tried to keep clear which canopy variant we are discussing. Yes, I was referring to the vented and valved Troll. I've been comparing it to a vented and valved Fox (with 5th upper conrol line mod), which is more or less apples to apples. Peace, D-d0g+~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #6 March 20, 2003 So I guess the Pooster stays in the closet for now, huh D-dog? SkypuppyIf some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pringles 0 #7 March 20, 2003 Tom, I am wondering if you have jumped the Troll MDV. what are your thoughts on opening characteristics. Do you think that Atair has addressed the concerns you had with the opening characteristics you had in the past? I would like to hear your thoughts. Would you only recommend the valved canopy or are they both just as good now. matt Matt Davies Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dd0g 0 #8 March 20, 2003 I was also involved in the testing of the non-vented Troll. We used to call it the "jellyfish" on slider-down openings. Soft and mushy, not consistent. Slider-up was ok, and its flight characteristics were great. . . but that mushy opening was bad. I never jumped 'em myself, but saw enough firsthand to be spooked with the non-vented Trolls slider-down. Since the vents were added (even before valving), this jellyfish-ing has been nonexistent. The valves are helping primarily with the glide ratio, not opening. Valved or not, a vented Troll is a horse of a different color from the unvented predecessor. Peace, D-d0g+~+~+~+~ But this, surely, was the glory that no spirits, canine or human, had ever clearly seen, the light that never was on land or sea, and yet is glimpsed by the quickened mind everywhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koidl 0 #9 March 20, 2003 I jump a Troll that has the MDV’s and the 5th upper control line retrofitted. Before that I experienced the same (bad) opening characteristics as Ddog and Tom A mentioned. Now it’s a totally different canopy regarding openings (really nice) and with the same great flight performance. Before jumping the Troll (labelled size 245) I jumped a Raven 3 which is about 248. I do find the Troll to be one size lager than the label states, both packing (volume) and flight wise. Just send Stane an email and you’ll know for sure. Cheers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #10 April 3, 2003 dear caerdydd, i am confused by your statement as i have made no such advice on our current line of base canopies. in fact i am still jumping our earliest troll (love it although tom beats me up for it) and have not tried the mdv yet. stane and robert have acumulated a huge number of jumps on the mdv. as far as morpheus they maintain to be our exclusive retailer of base canopies in the u.s. because robert and kathy are so knowledgable and trusted. sincerely, dan atair aerodynamics www.extremefly.comDaniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
