wingsuit deployments: "VTEC" canopies

[motherhucker 0]

yo.
what are people's recommendations for BASE canopies w/ wingsuits? How do vents+valves affect performance when deploying from a WS flight? pros, cons, etc...any info is appreciated.

thanks

[Deleted 0]

Of course, you all will recall that I was the first to jump BASE with a wingsuit. I jumped from the Castaño de las Hermana el Mar Cantábrico, a tall tree located here in Paraguay. The lemurs were hazardous.

[motherhucker 0]

any info is appreciated...
except for that.

[Spiderbaby 0]

Oh goody! More V-tech and vent blather to read about. Come on people, let's talk about 180's and object strikes, something I can relate to!

"It takes a big man to cry, it takes an even bigger man to make that big man cry"

[Faber 0]

becours you dont have vtec?
Most readers here are newbies(like myself),and we can use ALL info about BASE we can get.

But if you have a subject called 180 then bring it on,instead of blaming people of not talking about what conserns you most

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[PerFlare 0]

Motherhucker,

It is pretty much the same difference between vTec and Standard as in regular jumping. It's a little bit faster and harder. So it's important to have a heading and keep that through your deployment.

PerFlare
Team Bautasten

[blair700 0]

Per,
I know some of the manufacturers are recommending a "marquis" mesh (small hole) slider for terminal jumps on vented canopies....but since your'e not really falling at terminal with a wingsuit on, do you still use a regular large hole mesh slider for Birdman BASE?? Given the choice, would you recommend vented or non-vented canopies for WS BASE?? Thanks in advance for your help, good topic Huck, thanks for bringing it up.
Later
Blair

[jimjenningsmpa 0]

I discarded my non-vtec canopies about 4 years ago. I prefer vtec because no matter what you are jumping - wingsuit, static, super low go and throw, 1,2,3 second, sub-term slider up,
terminal - vtec will inflate quicker (so the openings may be a little harder) and give a better wing in less time.

To answer the question... Wingsuit airspeed at deployment is equivalent to a 3 to 4 second delay slider up (depending on how long you collapse your wings to deploy) and therefore vtec will help to inflate the canopy quicker, providing a steerable wing in less time (but ideally you are not close to any objects when deploying). I prefer large hole slider up for wingsuit BASE (seems to inflate a hair faster) although the difference is hardly noticeable and may only be my imagination.


Very curious to know if anyone out there has developed the balls to wingsuit BASE slider off/down? And if you have, please give a full report...
Could you imagine the possibilities of deploying out of a wingsuit slider off/down? Who's gonna be or has been the first???
JJ

[outrager 6]

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To answer the question... Wingsuit airspeed at deployment is equivalent to a 3 to 4 second delay slider up (depending on how long you collapse your wings to deploy) and therefore vtec will help to

I have to disagree here - while the speed will vary quite a bit depending on a pilot and a suit, the average is quite faster that 3..4sec delay. I usually fly slow, and my Classic opening were comparable to 6..8sec delays. Most people (and Skyflyer suit variations) fly faster. My skydiving opening on the S4 prototype feel almost terminal. To quantify this: on a reasonable flight (40mph vertical, 80mph horizontal) your total airspeed is about 90mph. You can flare a suit, but it won't slow down much.

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Very curious to know if anyone out there has developed the balls to wingsuit BASE slider off/down? And if you have, please give a full report...

If anybody has developed such balls, they will stretch to a watermelon size by the very first slider-down wingsuit opening ;-) This is going to hurt more than landing a wingsuit without a parachute.

On the question itself: i believe that vents are irrelevant in case of wingsuit deployments. They don't cause any problems nor do they have any benefits here. If i had a wingsuit-only canopy it would be unvented (to avoid extra bulk, weight and price). However, as D-Dog pointed out before, most people would use the same canopy in a slider-down situation at some point. If there's even a remote chance for this, i'd get the vents. This is where i agree with JJ - unless you only do higher slider-ups, a vented canopy is a way to go! Troll MDV, specifically ;-)

bsbd!

Yuri.

[jimjenningsmpa 0]

>I have to disagree here - while the speed will vary quite a bit depending on a pilot and a suit, the average is quite faster that 3..4sec delay.

Yeah, you're right right to disagree...for you. I was only speaking of myself. I flew my S1 and Classic so poorly I hardly had any forward movement so I didn't count that - only the vertical speed - and when I deploy my parachute, I collapse my wings for at least a couple seconds so I actually reach about 5 to 6 seconds equivalent vertical speed. I liken it to a sub-term slider up opening.

>I usually fly slow, and my Classic opening were comparable to 6..8sec delays. Most people (and Skyflyer suit variations) fly faster. My skydiving opening on the S4 prototype feel almost terminal. To quantify this: on a reasonable flight (40mph vertical, 80mph horizontal) your total airspeed is about 90mph. You can flare a suit, but it won't slow down much.

You are not the norm in wingsuit flying...


>If anybody has developed such balls, they will stretch to a watermelon size by the very first slider-down wingsuit opening ;-) This is going to hurt more than landing a wingsuit without a parachute.

Well...at least you would likely live if you opened slider off/down.

>On the question itself: i believe that vents are irrelevant in case of wingsuit deployments. They don't cause any problems nor do they have any benefits here.

I disagree. The canopy does open quicker because it inflates quicker. If you're opening low - like in the basement - IMHO vents could be of benefit.

At any rate, regardless of canopy brand, vents are nice to have.

JJ

[PerFlare 0]

I agree with Yuri. I would say that the openings are close to terminal. And if you fly maximum and pull in full flight you are not only in terminal your opening are quite similar to pulling in headdown. Your body will been thrown around 180 degrees and it will be quite easy to induce a linetwist with your body, especially if you have a hard opening.

I would strongly advice people to not flare the suit prior to pulling the PC. The burbule behind the suit will be large and flaring prior to pulling will increase the burbule and can make your PC hesitate or get in the turbulence behind your back.

Jumping a wingsuit with a slider down rig ... well in my opinion. That is a bad idea, and I would not recommend anyone to try it regardless of the size of balls or ego.

Vented canopys rules, but for bigwall jumping for good trackers and wingsuit flyers you do not need it. Allot of bigwalls need "glide" more than a fast opening canopy.

PerFlare
Team Bautasten

[outrager 6]

Yo !

Quote

Yeah, you're right right to disagree...for you. I was only speaking of myself. I flew my S1 and Classic so poorly I hardly had any forward movement so I didn't count that - only the vertical speed - and when

If you don't have much forward speed you'll have lots of vertical - there's no way you can slow your total airspeed below, say, 70..80mph. Even in your case "hardly any forward movement" is a significant number ;-) Wingsuits just don't create enough drag to go slow.

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You are not the norm in wingsuit flying...

Maybe ;) but i'm on a slower side - pretty much everybody else flies faster than me in terms of total airspeed.

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I disagree. The canopy does open quicker because it inflates quicker. If you're opening low - like in the basement - IMHO vents could be of benefit.

The very reason we put a slider on is to slow the openings... ;) Starting at 5..6sec i take additional care to slow it down further (rolling the nose etc). I don't want anything making my openings harder, they are fast enough as it is. Vents require extra measures to slow the opening down, like fine mesh, more nose rolls etc. Not really a problem, just not a benefit either.

Wingsuit openings at full flight at any speed consume very little altitude anyway, since most of the deployment happens horizontally.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[robibird 3]

Hi all,
I agree with Per!
To slow down before pull sequence is just one bad thing. Look at my smoke flight in Arco and you'll be able to notice how big turbulence we have behind the body when we fly in ''fast'' mode! Clearly, you can notice the turbulence which is coming from induced drag (vortex at the tip of the wing as the resolute of the air flow from the lower surface to the upper surface of the wing because of difference in pressure.)
Imagine what is happening when you slow down and put your body in ''slow'' mode. The turbulence will be huge!!
that for sure is not the place were you want to place your PC in BASE jumping.
Personally, I pull in ''fast'' mode ( trying to be as fast as possible ) I have Troll with no MDV and using small mash slider with double rubberband at ''C'' line. Yes, my openings are usually hard, but I rather live w this than with hesitation of my PC or canopy.
This opening technique I am using for BASE jumping I do not recommend for small skydiving canopies because the swing from the pull can void you in serious line twist .

Sincerely
Robi

Robert Pecnik
robert@phoenix-fly.com
www.phoenix-fly.com

[jimjenningsmpa 0]

>Yes, my openings are usually hard, but I rather live w this than with hesitation of my PC or canopy.

Yes, hesitations of PC or canopy suck! While jumping Kjerag last summer with my S1 I had a few low pulls mixed with pc or canopy hezi's and they scared the shit out of me! I was doulbe stowing, doulbe masking taping the steering lines, using small hole mesh slider, 36" F111 pc, and rolling the nose - and collapsing the wings and then reinflating as quickly as possible. This was making for some very comfortable openings, but the hezis were frightening!

So after the hezis, I switched back to large hole mesh sliders, 38" zp, collapsed the wings for a second more, became a strong proponent of vtec for wingsuit BASE and lived with the harder openings. Actually, I have never used a non-vented canopy for wingsuit BASE, so I am not to voice my opinion on that matter... Logically, I assumed vtec was good for inflation purposes, but that's coming from someone who flys the suit in a horizontal fashion, poorly (I've actually stalled out my classic on a couple of BASE jumps and basically fell straight down at about 45 mph average), but the S1 was better but still not that great in terms of forward speed. So with a vertical decent speed of about 50mph mixed with a forward speed of about 50...isn't that about 75mph fall rate or 5 to 6 second delay speed (I'm not much of a physicist or mathmatician)?

Looking forward to the S3 on a BASE jump this weekend...since the forward speed is unbelieveably faster!

Speaking of hezis...has anyone seen the vhs tape at the white house of a nasty hezi at Kjerag (somone once told me it was Jari). The guy was kicking and flailing and when he turned to his side the canopy eventually came out - great video of a wingsuit jump almost turned fatal!

be safe
jj

[robibird 3]

Hi, jj
This was Jari!! It has happened on June 99 w the classic I.

Regarding the V-tec or MDV, (in general vented canopies) I believe in this . Vents are simply helping the wing to inflate faster and as consequence of that the wing is flyable bit faster.
In case that any base jumper looking for the new canopy, it is nothing than super good idea to go for vents. It can't hurt nor for W/S jumps nor for any other type of BASE jumps.
Opening is slightly faster but so what!! Benefits of having the vents may help in serious situation always. It is little heavier canopy and bulky too but so what....
For us why enjoying the W/S jumps more than anything else, soon we gonna come to the point to have small, light canopies w characteristic of base canopies
Regards
Robi

Robert Pecnik
robert@phoenix-fly.com
www.phoenix-fly.com

[jimjenningsmpa 0]

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It can't hurt nor for W/S jumps nor for any other type of BASE jumps.

Definately agree!

>Opening is slightly faster but so what!! Benefits of having the vents may help in serious situation always.

Very good point. Let's take this discussion in a different direction. Thus far we have been speaking of the benefits, or not, of bottom skin vents in an ideal situation - flying the suit as it should be flown with no critical problems. What about someone flying the suit for the first time in BASE and experiencing flight issues i.e. flying in a stall or not able to fly straight, or openings that are low and next to a hillside, or whatever object, where a 90 degree opening could be ugly, or unstable exits that spiral headdown? Last summer I saw all of these situations and for sure vtec helped Rob Tompkins when he opened extremely low and parallel to a steep hillside, had a one/two second canopy ride, and flared into a tree. Without vtec his canopy likely would have taken longer to inflate and he very well could have hit that rocky hillside much harder. What if someone opens very close to the object with line twists and bounces down to the bottom? With vents the canopy will be more inflated as it descends straight down.

Food for thought...Because we all know BASE jumps don't always go as planned

JJ

[PerFlare 0]

Well in my opinion, take your wingsuit to a DZ and practice. If you can't fly straight or without stalling you need to practice more.

As stated before, It is pretty much the same difference between vTec and Standard as in regular jumping. So the things you are talking about, strikes, unstable exits and pulling ultra low ... well yes, vents do help.

PerFlare
Team Bautasten