Too Much To Soon?

[baa75 0]

I have seen the debates between people who use certain gear and those who don't. I am not trying to cause a debate, I have a specific person I am worried about and I need some help on handling this situation. I care about this person and I have already lost and nearly lost enough people in this sport to stand by and do nothing.

This person is 6'1" & 200+ lbs. He has roughly 275 jumps and started jumping a year ago. He doesn't use his RSL (I understand his reasons) and he removed his cypress about 40 jumps ago. While jumping a Spectre 170 he started jumping with a camera about 20 jumps ago. He switched to a Vengeance 160 and after about 5 jumps on it had a cutaway from a spinning mal. He was unable to see why because his slider had come all the way down and wrapped his camera so he couldn't move his head freely. (He is fine & we are still unsure of exactly what caused the mal but that's not my point.)

Where you come in: I know some people like the Vengeance but for someone with just under 300 jumps who is also learning to jump a camera, it just doesn't sound like the best choice. Also, removing the cypress...why? I do know that some camera people don't use them but again, this person has not quite 300 jumps and is still learning to video. He is just getting fun jumps, nothing serious.

I think he is jumping into new toys a bit too quickly. Am I just being too cautious? He is otherwise VERY good with keeping up his gear and in any other aspect of skydiving. I know I can't control his choices but maybe some of your experience will help? I'm not trying to insult his manly pride/ego but I think he may be taking it that way. Please help me. I feel like I'm just waiting for this person to get hurt. Sorry this is so long but it is really eating at me.

Oh, I am purposely leaving this person's name out so if you know who I am talking about please keep it to yourself.

Thanks!

BettyAnn

Getting married? Check out my website!

[billvon 2,990]

>He may think I am trying to say that he isn't good enough or something along those lines.

Ask him if he can perform the tasks listed in the downsizing checklist (on the safety page.) If he can, he's probably OK with the canopy. If not, then some additional training might be a good idea.

[quade 4]

I'm not sure it's a matter of too much too soon, but rather just poor choices for a specific discipline.

I can see no logical reason why a camera flyer would remove his Cypres. In fact, being a camera flyer adds additional risks that may render the person unconscious -- an impact with the tail on exit for instance or getting too steep on a formation, getting sucked into its burble and then impacting one of the other skydivers.

As for canopy choices when camera flying, a very stable and reliable deployment is highly desirable. A Spectre is an excellent choice. Any canopy can get line twists, but with a more docile canopy like a Spectre it's usually an inconvenience and not a reason to have to cutaway.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[baa75 0]

Thank you both.

I also feel that the camera adds to the chances of something unforseen happening. I don't really understand why anyone would jump without a cypres but I have spoken to a few people who just think those things will never happen to them.

I also jump a Spectre and completely agree with your description. Those were actually his reasons for buying it in the first place! (Why did that lady have to be so nice and return the canopy?! )

I have tried telling him these things but despite my 5 years in the sport he has more jumps than me so I get the reverse lecture about how I am not as current as he is, etc. Hopefully your opinions will help.

Thanks again!

BettyAnn

Getting married? Check out my website!

[lopullterri 0]

If his performance on landings proves he is O.K. to downsize, I don't see that as the issue. I do mostly video jumps, and think that there is more likelyhood of needing a cypres when doing video, especially when you are new at it. I also prefer to keep my slider up and out of the way and keep bumpers on so it won't come down, and possibly wrap in my camera or, and this did happen once, have the kill line wrap around my site.
He sounds like he is very current, which is important. Jump numbers don't tell the whole story. There are people out there with 500 jumps, who have no business downsizing. Sometimes because they did those 500 jumps in an 8 or 10 year span.----------- Just my opinion.

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

[baa75 0]

Thanks for your input.

I see you also jump a Vengeance. But at how many jumps did you start jumping camera and how many when you got the vengance? This person is trying to learn both at the same time. He is current and has very good flying skills (although his landings can be entertaining at times.) but that doesn't eliminate my concern. Sorry but I have heard more bad things about that canopy than good. This also isn't just a downsize its from a Spectre to a Vengance. Quite different canopies.

I may sound overly cautious but this is the same person who was concerned about me jumping my Spectre 150.

BettyAnn

Getting married? Check out my website!

[TimDave 0]

I am glad that there are other people that think about safety as much as you. I agree that this situation is potentially an accident poised to rear it's ugly head. With a wing loading of at least 1.4:1 and a high performance canopy these are things that in and of themselves are reason for concern. Add to this a camera and limited time in the sport = danger! If this person cites pure jump numbers and thinks that he has more expreience than you and therefore knows more you should point him towards this forum and get others involved that can turn those jump numbers around. The more people tell him to be cautious will either make him step back or push forward. If the latter happens, unfortunately there is nothing that anybody can do to stop him except for being grounded. A similar situation happened with me and a freind. I refused to jump with that person because I felt that they were dangerous and now I have 1 less freind. (At least they are still alive). Keep at it. Maybe he will take it slower or be good enough.

[Samurai136 0]

The only issue I have is W/ the Vengeance. He should switch back to the Spectre.

Did he buy the Vengeance new or used? I know the Vengeance at that size has had issues w/ spinning up on opening.

Ken

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[linestretch 0]

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I also prefer to keep my slider up and out of the way and keep bumpers on so it won't come down, and possibly wrap in my camera.

ditto here. That scares the shit outa me.

What about the S&TA? Where is this person on this issue? I've tried to talk to several people at my DZ about the same situation, downsizing too soon, and they didn't listen. One specific person, after he skipped very hard, I let him have it. He was still limping, and didn't like to hear it. But I was pissed, and he still didn't get it. Oh well, you can only let them know how you feel I guess.

my pics & stuff!

[baa75 0]

Thanks, I'd like to get someone at my DZ to talk to him but I don't think he'd take them seriously, or they wouldn't be serious enough with him.

He's really very cautious in every other aspect. I'm not sure what made him get this canopy knowing that he's just starting to jump his camera. I know that he knows the canopy characteristics well enough to know better.

Possibly a bit of wanting to have the high performance toys like the other kids...but not thinking about the new camera on his head? Maybe the ego of a 19 yr old guy thinking he's invincable? I'm not sure. But I spent a few hours of a beautiful Saturday looking for a freebag from a cutaway that could have been avoided.

BettyAnn

Getting married? Check out my website!

[baa75 0]

The canopy came used. I don't know who from but not someone I know.

This canopy (a 170 - my mistake) also has "issues" with the slider slamming down so hard that it comes right past the toggles and into your face. He said this happens about every jump and wants to put bumper stops on...I just prefer getting rid of the canopy.

BettyAnn

Getting married? Check out my website!

[baa75 0]

I haven't spoken to the S&TA about it. He's only had the canopy for about 5 jumps & #5 was this weekend...the cutaway. I'm really hoping that it won't come to the point where he has to get hurt or I have to go that far for him to come to his senses.

Hopefully just hearing the input on here will help. And if not I'll think of something else. I can't/won't sit by and watch someone hurt themselves.

Thanks

BettyAnn

Getting married? Check out my website!

[baa75 0]

Just to clarify...

Yes, the canopy is a Vengeance 170 - my mistake.

The person I am speaking of is my boyfriend...hence the emotional point of view. I asked for experienced opinions because I know that I have less jumps than him. However I have been in the sport long enough to watch more than enough people get hurt and die. Of all people I don't want to watch this happen with him. I'm sure anyone can understand that.

He is, of course, now being defensive that I posted this. Forgetting that I never mentioned his name and most of you have never met either of us. Oh well.

Thank you all for your thoughts and advice.

BettyAnn

Getting married? Check out my website!

[Jimbo 0]

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He said this happens about every jump and wants to put bumper stops on...

Yeah, that'd be great on a high performance canopy.

Hey, Dipshit, remember the old adage, "if you're going to be stupid, you had better be tough."

Good thing you're a rigger now, reserve repacks will be a bit cheaper.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[baa75 0]

Ugh...I give up. I tried to get some info to help and all I get is grief.

I'm done...he'll figure it out on his own one way or another.

Just ask him about it and the what & why. I'm done trying to help.

BettyAnn

Getting married? Check out my website!

[riggerrob 643]

The real issue here is limiting the number of new variables on any jump.
One new variable I can handle. Then it takes me at least 50 jumps before I am comfortable with a new canopy or camera.
With two new variables, I get really cautious.
With three new variables, I start thinking seriously about scratching from the load.

Adding a new canopy and a new camera helmet at the same time are bad karma.

[velo90 0]

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he removed his cypress about 40 jumps ago

IMHO a crazy idea, get him to put it back a.s.a.p.

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He switched to a Vengeance

I have seen very few people (if any) that should be jumping a vengeance with 275 jumps.

I find the vengeance tends to be ground hungry when compared to canopies such a the stiletto.
I also find the the openings on a vengeance tend to be more, can we say unpredictable? than any other elliptical I have jumped. I have not had enough experience on my Velocity to make comparisons. I started jumping my Vengeance at ~600 jumps.

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who is also learning to jump a camera

As some else has already said, seems like a lot of new things at once, not a smart idea.

Dave

[chuckbrown 0]

When Stilettos first came out PD wouldn't sell them to anyone with less than 600 jumps. I personally knew a jumper who bought a used Stiletto when he had 350 jumps. He went to another DZ, and had an off DZ landing in poor wind conditions while trying to avoid obstacles. His viewing was closed casket. He left behind a wife and child because he wouldn't listen to people who warned him he was exceeding the safety margins.

I've never jumped a Vengance (and don't want to -- CRW is fun enough for me), but if a Vengance makes a Stiletto look tame, your boyfriend is increasing his risk of injury/death exponentially. I truly hope he survives his poor judgment, and I hope he reads this with the understanding that skydivers have a shared love for what we do and want our brothers & sisters to have a long and healthy life (if we didn't love life to the fullest, we wouldn't jump). Your boyfriend obviously loves the sport (we all do). He should take the time to get to know his mistress.

[baa75 0]

As for the Cypres, the last I saw he had it up for sale and its boxed up with someone's name on it. It may already be sold.

Any suggestions for a canopy with higher performance than a Spectre but not quite a Vengeance? He says he was bored with his Spectre and likes the glide of the Vengeance. (He is still insisting that he is FINE jumping the Vengeance) He has put a few jumps on a Stiletto and didn't like it.

Again, I would have preferred that he keep the Spectre until he gets really good jumping camera and then play with finding a new canopy. Unfortunately the Spectre is already sold & shipped so now what?

He is annoyed that I posted my question and is snapping at & insulting me yet he’s asking for my help in finding a new canopy if not the Vengeance…go figure!

BettyAnn

Getting married? Check out my website!

[lopullterri 0]

I began doing video jumps at approx. 350 jumps...about the same time I got my new Stilletto. I was also a very current jumper. Yes the Vengeance is ground hungery, but responds very quickly to input. I have been severly cut off on landing, to the point of going into half breaks, stearing off the wind line, and finishing off the flare...if it had been on my last canopy (Stilletto), I would have pounded into the ground. It has great response on the bottom end. It is also great in turbulence. No I didn't buy it for it's on-heading openings, because there are none, but it is something I have grown used to. Oh, by the way, on jump # 13 on my new Stilletto, I had a cutaway, my only one at this point. I have had my 2 Vengeance canopies for the past 400 jumps.
Here is my point. What he needs is a good video mentor (safety tips, etc) and someone who knows the canopy, to give him tips. He doesn't need everyone jumping all over him. Let him concentrate on what he is doing. -------Just my opinion.

~"I am not afraid. I was born to do this"~

[Jimbo 0]

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He is annoyed that I posted my question and is snapping at & insulting me yet he’s asking for my help in finding a new canopy if not the Vengeance…go figure!

Almost any canopy will be different than a Spectre. The usual suspects are Sabre2, Lotus2, Safire2, Pilot (or is it the Vision?). Demo, demo, demo.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[GAskygirl 31]

There is a lot of good advice here. One of the best points is to minimize the number of new things on any one jump, and realize that new things are new for more than just a couple of jumps--it takes quite a few to make that "new" thing "routine."

Regarding specific canopies...there is no one best canopy for a given situation. Everyone flies a canopy a little differently. That's why we have so many canopy choices. For example, one might tend to flare a bit late, so a pretty responsive canopy might work well for them to recover. Someone else with an equal exit weight might tend to flare too soon; that responsive canopy might stall in that situation, so a more forgiving canopy might be better for that person.

The best thing one can do to find that perfect canopy, as Jimbo said, is demo, demo, demo...and talk to the manufacturers' reps. The bottom line, though, is how capable a person is with the canopy in various conditions. (realistically, not defensively)

My own experience--I haven't tried a Vengeance yet, but have had a great time under my Stilettos (120s and now 107s) for over 1,000 jumps, belly flying, freeflying, and some camera flying. But other people hate them. It depends on what you like.

Blue Skies!
-=Christy=-
D-21464