Velcro rig & wingsuit

[Bernt 0]

Most people would probably agree that velcro rigs and wingsuits don't go together. Of course, the idea of having the velcro peel prematurely and getting a horse-shoe malfunction does not sound very tempting. But some time ago I read about one guy who actually uses this combination, and I know that a Medusa (velcro rig with tuck tab on the shrivel flap) has been used at least twice with a Skyflyer without any complications. Now the question is: When using a velcro rig with a wingsuit goes fine, is it just luck? Why/why not?

Has for example the airflow over the rig been studied when flying a wingsuit?

- Bernt

[Faber 0]

why even go there as pin rigs has been invented???

use the right gear for the right job

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[hookitt 1]

It's pretty simple really. You can get away with a lot of stuff for a long time ... or not.

It's the "or not" part that becomes a real bummer.

It's not necessarrily luck, but to jump that configuration time and time again, I'd think you'll eventually have undesireable results. That especially goes for rolling or flipping on the back for "some reason" during a flight.

I don't have a wingsuit, but even though my velcro rig tucks in at the top, I wouldn't jump it with a wingsuit. Much better options are available.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Treejumps 0]

Actually, ALL people agree that velcro rigs are not acceptable for use with wingsuits. Why would you even consider it? It is a bad idea.

I always have to ask, "where do these people come from?" Why would you even consider it? BASE eats up people like this.

BTW, seeing that there are now skydiving and base specific rigs for wingsuits, I think it is safe to say that YES, airflow over a rig has been studied, and NO, they have not concluded that it would be a good enviroment for the return of velcro.

[cpoxon 0]

Anyone else notice Loic wearing a velcro rig whilst flying his wingsuit in the SoulFlyers video?

Skydiving Fatalities - Cease not to learn 'til thou cease to live

[hookitt 1]

Yup, sure did.

Better options are still available.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[TomAiello 26]

Short Answer: Bad Idea, don't do it!

You might want to read this thread in which three of the world's best wingsuit BASE pilots (Yuri, Perflare and Birdman Robert) all make the same statement in various ways. As Robert says:

Quote

Bird'Man inc. DO NOT RECOMMEND the VELCRO type rig for W/S BASE jumps.

You might also want to read this thread in which Yuri makes the point that:

Quote

Anything you wouldn't be comfortable with on a freefly jump from 14000' you shouldn't take on a wingsuit flight.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[LouDiamond 1]

I have to agree with what Tom has already said. To answer your question though it would be have to be luck or just a matter of time before a premature opening would happen. Bottom line, it's not wise to do even though it has been done without incident, you're basically rolling the dice.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[Bernt 0]

Thanks for all the replies and concern!
Just to get a possible misunderstanding out of the way: I'm not looking for an excuse to use a velcro rig with a wingsuit. I'm curious and want to understand WHY it's a bad idea.

It seems to me that giving the advice not to combine, is based on worries and not experiments. Don't get me wrong now, in a sport like base jumping it makes perfect sense to avoid gear where you see potential problems! But hey, I'm an engineer, so (Question #1) I'm wondering if the worries, or theories if you like, have been tested in any way, or if anyone has actually been unfortunate enough to have experienced premature peeling of the velcro. Talked with Adam at CR some time ago, and he knew of 2 cases (without wingsuit though). If I remember correctly, common for these jumps were about 8 sec delay, overstuffed containers and no tuck tab on the shrivel flap (I don't remember the condition of the velcro). (can anyone confirm my recollection?) If this is correct, only 8 sec delay and no wingsuit would definitely indicate that velcro and wingsuit is a bad idea. But it also depends on how much the tuck tab solve the problem.

I've read the threads Tom referred to, and found especially the following interesting:
Yuri tells about premature openings of a pin rig (caused by lack of plastic stiffeners in the pin-cover flap). Sofar, this is the only info I know of concerning premature openings with wingsuit that fits in the 'experiment' category.
Yuri also said: "Unprotected velcro has the same problem: it may stay secure while handling the rig but the high-speed airflow can peel it out fairly easy."
(Q #2:) Is this a theory or based on experiments?
Robert said: "If you fly FAST and in very good body position the beginning of the Velcro shrivel will be exposed during the entire flight.... this is the dangerous part and please keep this in mind!!!"
(Q #3:) Is this concerning a shrivel flap with or without a tuck tab, or is that irrelevant?
(Q #4:) Theory or experiment?

Before you reply, please keep in mind I'm not trying to convince anyone that velcro is or can be as safe as a pin rig for wingsuit jumps, I'm just trying to find out how well a velcro rig has been tested with wingsuit flights in mind, and how much of the consensus is based on theories/worries and how much on experiments. One might argue: Why bother, since the pin rig is invented? Well, in my opinion a fundamental part of base jumping is knowing what you're doing and why.

Love & peace, blue skies, soft walls and knowledge for everybody! - Bernt

[robibird 3]

Hi,

To jump WingSuit with BASE rig you have to check following on your equipment:
Pin rig.
1. rig MUST be in good shape and has to be in proper size for the canopy which is in side.
(Yuri's pack was so loose that there was no tension on the loop, second, the lack of good protection of the bridle and pin on his rig was the reason for premature opening.)
2. Bridle and pin protection has to be in good condition and secured well.
3. pilot chute has to be secured properly regardless of the place ( PC pouch on the WS or BOC)
4. proper PC size

Velcro rig.
I do not recommend using this type of container. However, I was using Velcro on couple of jumps too and I am sure that out there are still some jumpers who are still jumping WS with Velcro rigs.
So If anyone want to make WingSuit jump with the Velcro rig make sure to meet following :

Velcro rig
1. Size of the container must be correct for the canopy which is inside. ( I saw often that Velcro rigs are on the tight side, and this should be avoided )
2. Velcro on the shrivel flap and the Velcro on the CONTAINER FLAPS MUST be in good condition not worn out.
3 After you put the Velcro rig, bend your body forward and put your hand down to the legs and check if shrivel stays in place.
4. Proper size of the PC. ( As the force needed to open the container is higher on the Velcro, better would be to have PC which is bit bigger. Usually I am jumping with 36'' and for Velcro I would go w 38'' for example. )
5. Proper placing of the bridle and PC.

I noticed that Pin rigs becoming more and more popular . This is good for WS and luckily there is not so much cases were jumpers coming to the edge with wrong equipment. One more time I am saying that I do recommend PIN not Velcro , but if someone has desire to jump Velcro - OK, but make sure to meet above mentioned standards.

Best regards
RoBi

Robert Pecnik
robert@phoenix-fly.com
www.phoenix-fly.com