Re: [TomAiello] what's a good 1st BASE canopy??

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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All of my suggestions for first gear are linked at the upper right corner of this page (just click on the "My First BASE Rig" link).

You can also find my advice for getting into BASE up there ("Getting into BASE" link).

I'd definitely recommend getting a few hundred more skydives, first.

I have printed out these articles and have started to read one of them.

But I am curious as to what would be a good first base canopy for someone like myself (who jumps in CO). Some time within the next month or so, I will attend my first jump course in ID. But I am in no rush to buy gear (I will be getting the bill for a new skydiving rig soon and I'd like to buy a wingsuit as well, so $$$ for base isn't going to happen anytime soon). But I'm taking my first real step towards base jumping tonight as a friend is going to show me how she packs her rig.

So what would be a good first canopy for a guy like me?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[TomAiello 26]

I've detached this from the previous "first canopy" thread. That discussion was moving in other directions, so let's start over again here.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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But I am curious as to what would be a good first base canopy for someone like myself (who jumps in CO).

First, have you talked to experienced local BASE jumpers about the conditions and local objects? They may have some thoughts based on local information that you won't be able to get on the internet.

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Some time within the next month or so, I will attend my first jump course in ID.

And, your FJC instructors will probably also have some good advice about gear. You might take it with a smallish grain of salt if they are recommending their own gear, though (which most everyone will).

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So what would be a good first canopy for a guy like me?

What's your weight? Are you looking to BASE jump that wingsuit in the near to mid-range future? Are you mostly planning on jumping at home, or taking trips? Are you interested in low objects, or mostly terminal jumps?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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First, have you talked to experienced local BASE jumpers about the conditions and local objects? They may have some thoughts based on local information that you won't be able to get on the internet.

No but I know a number of people who I can talk to. I'm in no rush to get into the swing of things, but I thought I'd ask. But you are right. Talk to the locals.

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What's your weight? Are you looking to BASE jump that wingsuit in the near to mid-range future? Are you mostly planning on jumping at home, or taking trips? Are you interested in low objects, or mostly terminal jumps?

I weight about 190 lbs right now. Wingsuit base is a long term goal, but only after I do a ton of skydiving wingsuit jumps and a ton of base jumps. In terms of where to jump? Hmmm ... likely travelling a bit. But as of this moment, I am NOT interested in jumping from low objects (<300 feet).

Thanks for the info though. I have been reading your 1st Rig article and it's been very informative.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[TomAiello 26]

I'd probably go with Ace 310 or Troll MDV 290. You're going to need strong flare at high altitude (in CO), and these have great flare.

I might give the edge to the Ace because it's cheaper, and you don't really need the secondary inlets if you're not getting low anyway. Plus, it's a smidge bigger for pound ins at altitude. On the other hand, if you're headed out for slider down cliffs in Utah, the secondary inlets may help you avoid object strike, so maybe the Troll MDV...

You get the idea.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Okay I've read Tom's first base rig article and I found it very informative (though I still have plenty to learn). Here's kind of a summary that I've taken from it which may apply to someone like myself.

Canopy:

1) Tom has mentioned getting a F-111 canopy for simplicity and ease of packing and I think this is a good thing for someone like myself. I have plenty of experience packing brand spanking new ZP skydiving canopies (two Sabre2s and a Crossfire2), but I've never needed to worry about the neatness as much when packing my skydiving main versus packing a base canopy. So I will likely look for an F-111 base canopy.

2) Make sure the canopy has a tailgate. Of course I'm under the impression that all modern base canopies come with this feature.

3) Tom has recommended that a beginner avoid the bottom skin inlets, yet the fact remains that once I'm through with my initial training in ID and am ready to tackle other objects, I will be spending time in Moab. And even Tom has mentioned that I might want to consider a canopy with these inlets.

4) I've been told by a couple of people, including Tom to avoid the canopies with multiple bridle attachment points.

5) Tom didn't mention this in his article, but based on how my friend showed me how she packs her rig, I like the idea of having the lines which go into the tailgate a different color than all of the other lines. Plus I'd like to make sure that my center cell and stablizers have certain colors which I can easily identify which will greatly help a newbie like myself pack easier.

Container:

1) Tom has mentioned that he thinks beginners should choose a rig which used velcro, but my friend thinks a pin closure is better and I have yet to talk to many of the experienced base folks I may know about this topic. I am leaning towards a container with a pin closure for at least three reasons (one which may not occur for a long time). The pin closure is today's technology and unless my canopy is considered big for the container, closing the container shouldn't be an issue. Also, my long term base goals are to fly a wing suit and a velcro rig is just not an option there (of course doing wing suit base jumps is a long way off for me). Finally, I like the idea of doing big-wall terminal base jumps and it's my understanding that a pin closure is better than velcro for this discipline.

2) As a beginner, Tom recommends that I avoid B-12 snap closures and since I'm not a big fan of these anyway on my skydiving rig(s), why get it for a base rig.

3) Tom also recommends skipping the saddle bags which I agree with.

4) Tom recommends skipping the climbing harness option and while I do see myself having to climb certain cliffs in CO or Moab (I do have some mountaineering experience), but I likely don't need this feature (let's keep my first base rig relatively simple right?)

5) Tom recommends that unless you are making a lot of water landings, the use of stainless steel hardware isn't necessary. If I buy a new container (which I likely will), I will have to weigh the cost versus benefits of this option. My skydiving rigs have always had stainless steel, but I believe most modern base containers conceal the three rig system anyway. So maybe this is an added expense which I don't need to fork out.

6) Tom recommends that if a beginner is jumping a velcro closure rig, that side flap stiffeners be used. Does this only apply to velcro containers, or is it also applicable to a pin closure container?

Risers:

1) Tom recommends that we avoid the Type-17 mini risers.

2) Tom recommends that beginners like myself us the standard large rings and avoid the mini rings.

3) Tom recommends (for newbie packers) to avoid the "Big Grab Toggles". But if one was to spend a considerable amount of time practicing packing before one actually jumps, I wonder if I couldn't get used to packing these toggles?

Pilot Chutes:

There was some pretty informative info concerning pilot chutes and it appears that the 42" pilot chute will be the work horse. So I likely will follow the recommended pilot chutes in this article and add more as needed.

So before I get into specific canopies and/or containers (Tom and a few others have sent me messages concerning gear they think I may need here in CO and Moab), what do some of you think about what I summarized above? Once again, I have much to learn and I'm in no rush to actually start jumping (though I think I'd like to possible do an intro jump up in ID in the not too distant future). But I am thinking that getting some gear in the not too distant future to practice packing would be a good thing.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[TomAiello 26]

Hmmm. I've heard that Tom is working on an update to that "First Rig" article, and I'm thinking he needs to get off his butt and get it posted, since I don't necessarily agree with all the things Tom wrote last year.

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3) Tom has recommended that a beginner avoid the bottom skin inlets, yet the fact remains that once I'm through with my initial training in ID and am ready to tackle other objects, I will be spending time in Moab. And even Tom has mentioned that I might want to consider a canopy with these inlets.

I think that secondary inlets are getting much closer to being standard equipment. That said, I think BR is dead wrong to tell people not to customize their DBS with secondary inlets. I also think that the decision to use secondary inlets must be made with the type of object you'll jump held in mind. If you are going to jump lots of slider down solid objects (like down in Vertigo's playground), I'd probably get the secondary inlets. But I wouldn't be down there until I had 50 jumps or so.

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5) Tom didn't mention this in his article, but based on how my friend showed me how she packs her rig, I like the idea of having the lines which go into the tailgate a different color than all of the other lines. Plus I'd like to make sure that my center cell and stablizers have certain colors which I can easily identify which will greatly help a newbie like myself pack easier.

As far as I know, that's standard on all BASE canopies now. Can someone correct me if I'm wrong? I've got canopies from everyone but Vertigo that came standard that way. What's the setup on the Dagger?

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The pin closure is today's technology

I think that's a misconception. Velcro is also todays technology. It's not that one is the old way and one the new. It's mostly that they are ideal for different jumps. If I was going to make a bunch of slider down cliff jumps (like down in red rock country), I'd personally go with velcro over pin.

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...unless my canopy is considered big for the container, closing the container shouldn't be an issue.

It's equally bad to have a canopy that's too small for a pin rig.

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Also, my long term base goals are to fly a wing suit and a velcro rig is just not an option there (of course doing wing suit base jumps is a long way off for me). Finally, I like the ideal of doing big-wall terminal base jumps and it's my understanding that a pin closure is better than velcro for this discipline.

I agree. If big walls are your thing, I'd go with pins. Still, plenty of folks have used velcro on big walls just fine. It's the wingsuits where it becomes a safety issue.

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5) Tom recommends that unless you are making a lot of water landings, the use of stainless steel hardware isn't necessary. If I buy a new container (which I likely will), I will have to weigh the cost versus benefits of this option. My skydiving rigs have always had stainless steel, but I believe most modern base containers conceal the three rig system anyway. So maybe this is an added expense which I don't need to fork out.

You can get BASE rigs made with exposed rings. But BASE gear is generally about function, not style. The real question is: what is the functional advantage of stainless steel?

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6) Tom recommends that if a beginner is jumping a velcro closure rig, that side flap stiffeners be used. Does this only apply to velcro containers, or is it also applicable to a pin closure container?

Only to velcro. The problem doesn't occur on pins. Still, virtually all pin rigs have stiffeners, mostly for esthetics.

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3) Tom recommends (for newbie packers) to avoid the "Big Grab Toggles".

I expect that Tom will be changing that in the next edition.

Interesting to see how my views have evolved over (relatively short) time. The gear keeps changing, and so do the users, I guess.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Cool ... thanks for the speedy reply.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Hey I saw on Blinc's classified ads that you were trying to sell a BlackJack 280, but that you would only sell it to qualified buyers? Correct me if I am wrong, but the BlackJack uses ZP fabric as it's top skin (so it could be harder for a newbie to pack). But is there another reason why the BlackJack wouldn't be suitable for someone like myself? Does it have the multiple bridle attachment points, or is there some other reason which I'm not aware of.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Faber 0]

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5) Tom didn't mention this in his article, but based on how my friend showed me how she packs her rig, I like the idea of having the lines which go into the tailgate a different color than all of the other lines. Plus I'd like to make sure that my center cell and stablizers have certain colors which I can easily identify which will greatly help a newbie like myself pack easier.

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As far as I know, that's standard on all BASE canopies now. Can someone correct me if I'm wrong? I've got canopies from everyone but Vertigo that came standard that way. What's the setup on the Dagger?

i think its normaly know how to know which lines are which.. in such a way that you dont really need the collur but could do it anyway,its just a help to pack faster.Anyway beaware if you ever will pack a canopy whith a 5th line mod on,my 5th line is whith,i didnt really wanted to pay ekstra to get a red line shipped to dk,as the whith does th same.

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In Reply To
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...unless my canopy is considered big for the container, closing the container shouldn't be an issue.

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It's equally bad to have a canopy that's too small for a pin rig.

really simpel just ONLY buy gear that fit together,that easy

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5) Tom recommends that unless you are making a lot of water landings, the use of stainless steel hardware isn't necessary. If I buy a new container (which I likely will), I will have to weigh the cost versus benefits of this option. My skydiving rigs have always had stainless steel, but I believe most modern base containers conceal the three rig system anyway. So maybe this is an added expense which I don't need to fork out.

BASE aint skydive,you need no glimmer to show people that you stands at a place you might aint alowed to

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[TomAiello 26]

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Correct me if I am wrong, but the BlackJack uses ZP fabric as it's top skin.

You're wrong. The composite (ZP on the front third) topskin is an option on Aces and Blackjacks, but both are also available with an all F-111 topskin. The difference between an Ace and a Blackjack is the PAC valves (secondary inlets).

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But is there another reason why the BlackJack wouldn't be suitable for someone like myself?

Nope. The thing to consider on the Blackjack is whether you want the secondary inlets.

One other thing to think about with secondary inlets is price. They add significant cost, and if you're just trying BASE out, you might want to hold off and see if you really like it. Some manufacturers will retrofit secondary inlets onto their gear (for slightly more than it would have costed to get them originally).

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Once again thanks for the info and your point concerning the secondary inlets are good concerning costs. Sometime down the road, I can see their benefits for the jumping I may do in Moab. But I am nowhere near ready to be jumping there and I did sort of tell myself that I wasn't really interested in doing low jumps (right now I'm thinking low is <300 ft).

Hey I was all keen on the Troll canopy (possibly the MDV version) until I started reading your review in Blinc (the original Troll, not MDV version right?). Now keep in mind that I'm not thinking of doing any low jumps anytime in my lifetime (of course my opinion could also change over time), so maybe your negative remarks concerning the Troll's openings wouldn't apply to someone like me. But it still makes me wonder about the merits of getting a Troll.

I have to say I like what I'm reading about Morpheus's Gargoyle and Medusa containers (I still like the idea of a pin closure more than velcro, but packing in the dry air here in CO could be fun ... NOT). And one would think that matching a properly sized container with a canopy all from the same manufacurer would be a good thing in terms of ease of packing and of course safety?

I also like what I'm reading about the ACE. What about using one in a Gargoyle container (or Medusa if you can convince me I'd be happier with velcro)?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[TomAiello 26]

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Hey I was all keen on the Troll canopy (possibly the MDV version) until I started reading your review in Blinc (the original Troll, not MDV version right?).

That review is for the unvented version. The MDV pretty much addressed all my concerns. I'm now jumping a (retrofitted) MDV version of the canopy, and have been very happy with it. I'll see if I can find some time to write up a review of the MDV configuration.

All in all I've been very impressed with Morpheus on both technical (gear) issues and customer service and support.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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I'm now jumping a (retrofitted) MDV version of the canopy, and have been very happy with it.

Cool ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[K763 0]

Hi Canuck!

I'd like to welcome you to BASE jumping, and commend you on your approach. You seem to be asking the right questions, investigating everything thoroughly, and doing your homework. This is a recipe for a safe and happy BASE jumper, IMHO.

I would like to give you some other information to think about regarding your first canopy. First of all, let me speak plainly and tell you that Tom Aeillo is sponsored by CR, as I am sponsored by BR, so we have loyalties to our manufacturers. All of the gear manufacturers today are very upright, consciencious, and safety-minded people, so what ever manufacturer you choose is going to give you the best they have to offer. That being said, here are some facts for you.

In the recent Malaysian event, the canopies jumped by the "pro BASE jumpers" were noted. Of the 30 jumpers on the ranking list, 15 of them jumped Basic Research canopies. This would indicate that BR supplied as many canopies to the pros than all other manufacturers combined. Also, the top 4 ranked jumpers all jumped BR parachutes, either the FOX or the FLiK. I think this makes a pretty strong statement about what parachutes the "best of the best" like to fly.

As far as bottom surface venting goes, I highly recommend it, even to beginning jumpers. In fact, low experience jumpers probably benefit more from Vtec than more experienced jumpers. Experienced jumpers are more likely quicker on the risers and are able to steer away quickly, whereas a newer jumper may not have such quick reflexes. In an off-heading opening situation acheiving full inflation and being able to steer your canopy away from the object is vital. Every nanosecond counts when you're flying towards that wall! Additionally, if you have trouble steering away and you're bouncing down the cliff face, the bottom skin inflation can keep your canopy inflated even without forward momentum. What's not to like about that?

As for pins vs. Velcro closed....I vote for pins, hands down. Kevin and I did a test with a velcro rig and a 2 pin rig, and I was happily shocked to see that the pins had popped when only 1/3 of the Velcro had peeled away. Which container opened quicker? No question...the 2 pin. Pin tension is easy enough to check...before you pull your pull-up cord(s) out of the closing loop(s), grab your bridle and try to pick up your rig. If you can pick up your rig by the bridle, your closing loop(s) is/are too short for that pack job. I jump a single pin rig, and even those times I have to work the pin in, I always can pull it by the bridle before the rig moves a millimeter. Since Todd taught me this, I have no pin fear whatsoever. Pin rigs are more secure, open quicker, and need less maintenance over time.

I hope you've found any of this helpful. Keep on doing your research and you're bound to come up with the appropriate choices for your own set of BASE gear when the time comes. Good luck, and soft landings!

Peace,
Karen
BR

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Cool ... thanks for the info.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[TomAiello 26]

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Tom Aeillo is sponsored by CR

Yo!

TOTALLY INCORRECT

I am not sponsored by anyone. I have never been sponsored by anyone.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[DexterBase 1]

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Tom Aeillo

umm... hehe... I think it's Aiello...

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As for pins vs. Velcro closed....I vote for pins, hands down. Kevin and I did a test with a velcro rig and a 2 pin rig, and I was happily shocked to see that the pins had popped when only 1/3 of the Velcro had peeled away. Which container opened quicker? No question...the 2 pin. Pin tension is easy enough to check...before you pull your pull-up cord(s) out of the closing loop(s), grab your bridle and try to pick up your rig. If you can pick up your rig by the bridle, your closing loop(s) is/are too short for that pack job. I jump a single pin rig, and even those times I have to work the pin in, I always can pull it by the bridle before the rig moves a millimeter. Since Todd taught me this, I have no pin fear whatsoever. Pin rigs are more secure, open quicker, and need less maintenance over time

While I generally agree with the versatility of pins and only jump pins myself, I think this is somewhat over-simplified in terms of the beginner BASE jumper. I'll elaborate if you wish.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

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While I generally agree with the versatility of pins and only jump pins myself, I think this is somewhat over-simplified in terms of the beginner BASE jumper. I'll elaborate if you wish.

If you're directing this comment at me, please do ...

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[donkeyboy 0]

Karen,

How many of the " Pro Base Jumpers" in the Malaysian event are sponsored by BR ( free or discounted gear counts ). Just curious

[TomAiello 26]

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Of the 30 jumpers on the ranking list, 15 of them jumped Basic Research canopies.

Um, this makes as much sense as:

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50% of Americans drive Chevies, so, by implication, you ought to also.

I mean, if they have the largest market share, they must be the best, right?

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Also, the top 4 ranked jumpers all jumped BR parachutes, either the FOX or the FLiK. I think this makes a pretty strong statement about what parachutes the "best of the best" like to fly.

Funny. I heard CobaltDan making the same claim last year, and the year before, in favor of Atair canopies.

As I said then, the quality of the jumper determines their performance far more than the quality of the canopy. Put Douggs on a clapped out Cruiselite, and he'd still be ten times the jumper I am.

I'm also not certain what the ability to give free canopies to good jumpers indicates, other than good cash flow. I would be more interested in what percentage of those jumpers actually chose and paid full market price for the gear they jumped.

Give people free gear, and they are almost certain to jump it.

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Which container opened quicker? No question...the 2 pin...

There are definitely a few issues you've left out of your comparison. My fears with pin rigs have absolutely nothing to do with the pin not coming out. And I don't think a beginner who plans on jumping nothing below 300' is going to be effected by the difference in opening speeds. In my opinion, that difference only starts to become important on freefalls below about 200'.

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Pin rigs are more secure...

I am not certain that I agree with you that pin rigs are "more secure". I believe they stay closed better in terminal airflow. I don't believe this is the same as being "more secure". It's far easier to pop a pin on accident (while, say, wiggling through the structure of an antenna) than it is to peel the whole shrivel flap (if only because the shrivel flap gives you auditory warning that it is going before it goes entirely).

Velcro rigs are also much easier to close without distorting the pack job. This is important for a beginner, who is probably having enough trouble packing already.

I really don't think that any system is best 100% of the time.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Base733 0]

The Malaysian WBC event was a blast! I just took a look at the results, looks like the top score for openings was by Nenad Pesut who, if I remember correctly and from what I saw, was jumping both vented and unvented Trolls.

c-ya.

[base428 1]

Lordy, lordy......

-10 years ago, we laughed at the thought of jumping a "pin BASE rig".
-Pin rigs don't necessarily open faster than Velcro rigs. Maybe when you're pulling the bridles by hand on the ground, but when you're 5 seconds into freefall, the snatch force from the PC is fast and strong enough to yank anything from your back quickly. Have you ever tossed a PC out a car window? Don't try it....it'll yank your arm off.
-Why are B12's not advised for beginners? I say they're safer for beginners when they plunk down into the Snake River and need to get out of their harness.

Maybe we need to put "UNSPONSORED, UNBIAS JUMPER" at the bottom of our posts from now on?

To answer the original question in this thread, I believe there are few, if any, bad BASE canopies on the market. Canopies from BR, CR, Vertigo, and Morpheus (Troll) are all widely used and acceptable for most every type of BASE jump. Vents should be purchased if applicable to your most common type of jump, and really have nothing to do with experience. If you're in Moab, get vents......if you're near a terminal wall, then non-vented may better suit you. My best advice to you is to wait, and talk to as many jumpers as you can to see what they are jumping and what they prefer.

Good luck. Have a good weekend everyone.

(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

[Faber 0]

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I am not sponsored by anyone. I have never been sponsored by anyone.

A NOT correct statment,you have helped me on some Q´s and i sponsor you by beer when we one day meet

Any way Karen is right you should look out for thouse who is sponsored,its their job to say its the best gear they use.. that simple

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[TomAiello 26]

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-Why are B12's not advised for beginners?

In general, I'd not recommend them for simplicity. Most skydiving rigs don't use them these days, hence most beginner jumpers won't be accustomed to them. I'd avoid adding too many new things at once.

I do agree with Jason that B-12's can be very handy. In addition to helping get out of the gear faster (in the event of water landing or police pursuit, or whatever) they can help get into the gear faster/easier (and that's really handy in some funny places).

Still, on balance, I'd get used to BASE gear on the whole before adding B-12's in.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com