Packers for BASE: Good Idea?

[TomAiello 26]

Do you think that it is good to have packers available at legal sites/events?

I've seen packers in Norway, Bridge Day and Malaysia.

I've also seen some paid pack jobs used on illegal jumps, but that is much rarer.

Anyone care to comment on either the safety considerations or ethics of paying for a BASE pack job?

Thoughts, anyone?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Zennie 0]

Instinctually, I answered "Depends on the Site". Bridge Day... sure. A bad pack job is probably going to result, worst case, in you getting wet. Elsewhere, such as Norway, it could possibly kill you.

That said, look at what the use of paid packers has done in the skydiving community. I can't tell you how many skydivers are absolutely CLUELESS about their gear, how it's configured, how and why it works the way it does. They learn to pack well enough to check off for their "A" and from then on toss it to a packer for $5 a shot.

This may work when you have a few grand to deal with whatever the packer threw at you, but in BASE it would be very hazardous to your health. Plus, packer-induced-gear-cluelessness would carry over into poor gear selection, again which would inevitably lead to less-than-desirable results.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[evilivan 0]

I voted no:

1) As Zennie points out, anything that removes the hands on relationship with the kit is probably a bad thing in BASE

2) I personally wouldn't want to give someone the responsibility (a legal site is not necessarily a 'safe' jump)

3) I'm far happier jumping my own pack jobs (although I have, and will, jump other peoples too)

"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

[DrewEckhardt 0]

I will not jump some one else's pack job off a cliff.

With a bridge (off heading won't matter), over water (worse things won't), and huge landing area (blown toggle won't make a water landing more attractive) like the legal bridge in the potato state I would.

[peterk 0]

I think that packing is as much of a part of BASE as the jump. I have learned something on every pack job that I've done, and can say that it has gotten better with each one also. I learn new tricks every time, get faster, and get better.

I love the fact that when I'm at the exit point, it is me and the object, with gear that I've prepared as best as I can. The person that wants me to stay alive the most is me, and when I climb over, I think about my packjob, everything that I've done and every step, and know that it is the best that I can do.

I don't let people pack for me in skydiving, mostly because I figure a couple pack jobs, which I can easily do myself and enjoy, is another jump ticket. But in BASE, even from a legal bridge, it is the confidence that I get in knowing that I did it right that gives me the confidence to enjoy the jump.

---------------
Peter
BASE - The Ultimate Victimless Crime

[outrager 6]

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Do you think that it is good to have packers available at legal sites/events?

Yes yes yes! You are always free to reject their service, but an option of not having to pack is the sweetest thing in the world. It gives BASE another chance ;-) Such voluntary services would remove the unethical practice of enslaving younger jumpers to pack for you by means of brutal force, trickery and false promises.

I personaly don't care which direction a canopy opens, so as long as it opens at all and the price is right you've got my business!

bsbd!

Yuri.

[KMonster 0]

I don't like the idea of paying someone else to pack for you. Even if it is only at certain events, or sites, it is only a matter of time before it expands. A clear line needs to be drawn to avoid any grey area as to where/when it is "okay." If a line is drawn at never, then every person who believes they are capable of BASE jumping, will learn how to pack for themselves -- BASE is not just the exit, but learning everything that goes before it too.

I know someone personally who only jumps legal sites at this point due to his job. If someone was available to pack for him, he would never have to learn how to do it himself.

[ZegeunerLeben 0]

>>I've packed for another, as part of the "get confident stupid" BASE packing program. Nerve racking to watch someone jump your packjob (45 left it was body position, body position I tells ya!) I guess it would depend on the individual..If you really trust the person and are willing to accept what you may get then for some it may be okay. In general, it sounds like a bad idea to me.

[ZegeunerLeben 0]

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...Such voluntary services would remove the unethical practice of enslaving younger jumpers to pack for you by means of brutal force, trickery and false promises...

>>Ha ha! Sometimes I think experienced jumpers take on newbies just for the pack jobs! "Sure, I'll mentor you, here let me teach you to pack..."

[motherhucker 0]

There are only a few people in the world who I will let pack for me (and actually jump it).

Personally, I feel that once you leave an object, BASE is a sport for the individual, with personal culpability being of the utmost importance. IMHO, each and every BASE jumper needs to take full responsibility for their own accidents, injuries, or other personal mishaps. BASE is not skydiving, bowling, golf, or tennis. Everyone who jumps should be fully cognizant of the risks and have already evaluated the jump. Once you decide, whatever happens is your fault, good or bad, short of possibly a sniper picking you off in freefall.

That being said, having someone else pack for you seems like it could remove some of that culpability from the jumper making a BASE jump. That's bad. Aside from that, you should keep current with all aspects of your sport--it makes you a better jumper. I've heard of people with up to 50 BASE jumps that still did NOT KNOW how to pack! That's bad.

Lastly, a large part of BASE is the friends I meet along the way, and if I ever go in, I don't want any of my friends trying to blame themselves for what happened, because it was MY fault.

It's my life--I'll take responsibility for it and pack for myself...that reminds me--I need to finish packing!
mh

[TomAiello 26]

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A clear line needs to be drawn to avoid any grey area as to where/when it is "okay."

As there is already packing for hire pretty much all summer at Norway's most popular site, it may be a little late to draw a clear line.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[NeilQ 0]

I've posted no. I had 2 pack jobs done for me in Malaysia when jumping the this/last year. I had to open the first one as the container had been closed incorrectly and found a less than good pack job. I had to tidy it before jumping. I had an off heading opening but due to overhang wasn't bothered. However on second one we got winded. The next day we were jumping back at Petronas and due to me being a lazy SOB I didn't repack it tho I did open it and tidy it again. The video shows a good stable deployment position thru out. I got slammed and then had 2 full line twists whilst heading towards the building next door. I managed to steer away and kick out twists and was all ok after. I guess the moral, for me anyway, is don't be a lazy bastard and I would never take a packer in BASE again

My £0.02

YMMV

Stay safe

Neil

[outrager 6]

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A clear line needs to be drawn to avoid any grey area as to where/when it is "okay."

As there is already packing for hire pretty much all summer at Norway's most popular site, it may be a little late to draw a clear line.

Yep, you can bitch all you want but the market already exists
bsbd!

Yuri.

[brits17 0]

Where I come from, learning to pack is part of paying your dues. If you want to be cool and jump with the big boys, then you will learn to pack too. Elsewhere it may be different for obvious reasons.

I'm down with packers at Bridge day where an off heading is no big deal. But at a cliff where a 180 can kill you, and its the packer's fault... now that would suck I suppose its personal preference and I'm fine with people doing whatever they want to do, but I'm sure not going to put myself in that situation.

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[TomAiello 26]

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Where I come from, learning to pack is part of paying your dues.

What about people like Outrager, who have clearly already paid their dues?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[base704 0]

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and its the packer's fault

And just how would we determine that?

You can get a lot more done with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone.

[Treejumps 0]

Yuri,

You are sounding more and more like a gumpy old man. Perhaps you should go to Florida this weekend with all of the other blue hairs and get a nice steak at Denny's around 5:00 pm.

Seriously,

I'll let nearly anyone pack for me. I'm sure it will open, and I can spend more time doing other things before a jump. I'm quite certain that every packer will take more time and be more concerned with a pretty pack job than me. BTW, I have been tricked into packing for Yuri at least twice. I am wiser now and he can pack his an mine.

Tree

Team Old and Brittle (and limping)

[brits17 0]

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Where I come from, learning to pack is part of paying your dues.

What about people like Outrager, who have clearly already paid their dues?

Sorry, didn't clarify. I was referring to the post I came across mentioning those who had plenty of base jumps w/o knowing how to pack, not those who are packing gods but simply lazy Kidding about the lazy part.

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[brits17 0]

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and its the packer's fault

And just how would we determine that?

Not sure. I suppose it depends on the situation if fault can be determined. I was just posing an "if."

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[PerFlare 0]

I vote Yes. I agree with Yuri that it is up to you to decide if you like to use the service or not.

Personally I jump packjobs made by my team mates, my students and most experienced people ... they being alive is a good empirical way to make sure that at least up to that point in time their packjobs seems to work fine. And my heading performance are pretty random from bad body position anyway so that does not worry me more then usually ;)

So if Tom ask me on the exit point, can I test your rig? The answer would most likely be "by all means" ... but then if Yuri ask the same and you know the party was good the night before and you have a vague memory of seeing Yuri pack his rig after the pub closed the answer would probably be ... "Sure" because you do not like to admit that you are scared ;)

PerFlare

[Faber 0]

i vote NO i only jump my own packjob,if i cant pack myself i dont care too much about the jump,i also thinks like that in skyworld,but thats just me

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Faber 0]

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I personally wouldn't want to give someone the responsibility (a legal site is not necessarily a 'safe' jump)

ha ha good one mate

EDIT:
just to ADD ,sorry mate

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Faber 0]

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In Reply To
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Where I come from, learning to pack is part of paying your dues.

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What about people like Outrager, who have clearly already paid their dues?

to me he hasnt unless he is done in BASE.
Not saying that you should drop out becours you dont bother to pack,but if you dont care as much anymore,then what else are you slagging on?i mean whats the next point were you can effort to be lazy,and trust your luck that you will survive? if that day comes to me,i will stop BASE jumping..

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[crimpfiend 0]

>I personaly don't care which direction a canopy opens, so as long as >it opens at all and the price is right you've got my business!


Dawlin', you don't care which direction a canopy opens because you're always 3 miles away from the wall when you open...

There are quite a few people that I'd let pack for me. But Yuri's not one of them. Just kidding. (if you've ever seen him pack, you'd initially say "oh hay-yell no", but his experience & longevity speak volumes & I'd totally let him pack for me. But then again, I guess I know that'd NEVER happen, so maybe I'm hiding behind the knowledge that I won't ever be in that sitch... hmm... )

I think after a while it comes down to laziness & who's feeling motivated on any given day. Some days, an unpacked rig is enough to make you blowoff a jump & other days you're the first to throw down your gear, clamps in-hand, after just returning from the last jump.

I hate packing. But I don't think I'd hire a packer unless it was someone that I totally knew, trusted and would let pack for me under non-commercial circumstances.

Also, Yuri's revived the bartering-for-packjob system, which seems to be working quite well so far. Might have to get in on that action next time

[GroundZero 0]

I've always packed for myself... too cheap and poor to pay for something so easy and quick to do...

What's next, we pay people to jump for us and then, since we paid, we have the first right to log 'em. Skydiving has turned pretty country club, I'm new to BASE but it seems far purer than typical skydiving today. I only hope we don't see this follow skydiving... I would pay someone to carry my lazy ass up the hill every time... (OY!)

But the market will drive supply... so I guess as demand exists, supply will follow.

Chris