Good chance or bulletproof?

[PerFlare 0]

For a while I have been thinking about this attitude that some of us are expressing. I usually go through the threads and recently Tom's "Poll: Packers for BASE: Good Idea?".

The thing is that people really trust their rigs, canopy's and skill to the point that it makes them bulletproof. It is like if I have the newest vented canopy in a brand new rig that I have packed my self and then make all the right decisions I will get out of it alive, I would say it is a good chance of it but I never know.

Personally I think the day you decide to be a basejumper nothing is one hundred per cent sure because even if you try to always make the right decision and have top notch gear and training there are some things you just have to more or less need to do a calculate guess about and I am sure that most of us have been in situations that have been out of control and the only thing that made you survive it was pure blind luck.

Maybe I have misunderstood something, English are now my first language and sometimes I can not pick up all the nuances in the language. So is there base brothers and base sisters out there that are 100% sure that they do not have a place (pretty much like writing a blank check) on the list ... at least as long as you are a active basejumper?

PerFlare

[BASE813 0]

2 quotes I had always liked and believed in are (something like this anyway) -

1)Every jump I give myself 50/50
2)We all have a place on Nicks list, we just don’t know which number / place / order

sorry but I dont remember who said these..........

[Faber 0]

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It is like if I have the newest vented canopy in a brand new rig that I have packed my self and then make all the right decisions I will get out of it alive

i tell myself that on each jump whats wrong whith that..

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I would say it is a good chance of it but I never know.

so would i... but the gear thing,and knowing how to deal stuff will help you alot on the long road...

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I think the day you decide to be a basejumper nothing is one hundred per cent sure

again i agree,but were taking risk each time we jumps,or even drive to the object,nothing is safe in the world,one thing is sure.. we will leave the world at some point..

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So is there base brothers and base sisters out there that are 100% sure that they do not have a place (pretty much like writing a blank check) on the list ... at least as long as you are a active basejumper?

not me...im not safe as a jumper but i feel i can some how effect the chances to keep myself alive...

for mac...

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1)Every jump I give myself 50/50

in my eyes that person either cant calculater or is a bad jumper... there are so many aspects and influence on just one jump that saying that survival is only 50%chance i then guess that more jumpers whould have been dead by now...

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We all have a place on Nicks list, we just don’t know which number / place / order

sadly i agree to this,but again its a life cyklus.. you know the jumpers at Nicks list didnt only die while BASEjumping,actualy the biggest list is below the jumpers that died while jumping(fixed objects).

I dont want to say that BASE is safe,i dont think it is.But i also dont only look at it as black n white..

Just make sure to stay as safe as you can out there...

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[greeny 0]

It took 121 jumps for me to get myself into a situation that Mr Blind Luck could no longer get me out of. I believe that that makes my odds of walking away from the next jump 99.2%. I can live with that, for now.

[Faber 0]

it took me 30 jumps,now i have over 100 and dont count the bruises ive got after as injuryes(were it DW that once said,your first injuryed as you have been at hospital longer than 14days)

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[gus 1]

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1)Every jump I give myself 50/50

You can't be serious .

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[BASE813 0]

A very well known and experienced jumper said this – and I think its more about the mind set and attitude on the edge then any correct percentages or calculations to risk analysis…….

I say I agree with this not due to any calculations but on how scared I am internally on each jump – I accept that this jump maybe “the one” – this keeps me sharp and totally aware of my environment at every stage –

Don’t get me wrong – I know the odds are not 50/50 – but I never feel that the jump I am about to do is going to go perfect and work in my favour!!

It helps to keep me from getting complacent………..

BASE scares the living shit outta me…………..

[PerFlare 0]

PerFlare wrote
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It is like if I have the newest vented canopy in a brand new rig that I have packed my self and then make all the right decisions I will get out of it alive

Faber replied
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i tell myself that on each jump whats wrong whith that..

PerFlare replying
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I do not say that it is wrong. It is just a strange thing to do if you know that it is not true. It is a little bit like lying to your self and not really accept the consequences of your actions neither to your self or your family and love ones.

PerFlare

[outrager 6]

Yo !

In BASE jumping, logic and emotions are generally disconnected. The fear and the actual level of risk on a particular jump, for example, frequently have very little to do with each other. What this means in your context is that it's very easy to _know_ the risk and still _feel_ immortal I know - i did for a long time. I don't feel bulletproof any more, in fact i get much more scared these days. Ignorance is a blessing...
There is a special beauty in all this, however. Calculate the risk, make a plan, set an autopilot - and then let the emotions run wild... Uh, anybody willing to start an acid base thread ?

bsbd!

Yuri.

[Zennie 0]

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In BASE jumping, logic and emotions are generally disconnected. The fear and the actual level of risk on a particular jump, for example, frequently have very little to do with each other.

I can attest to this.

I've been on tall tower jumps, at a very familiar locale, and my heart felt like it was going to pound out of my chest.

Yet on my first (and only thus far) B jump, I was alone yet strangely calm.

You just never know what emotion you'll feel when stepping up to the edge. It's different every time, and I think one of the things that makes this sport special.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[mdbase 0]

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In BASE jumping, logic and emotions are generally disconnected. The fear and the actual level of risk on a particular jump, for example, frequently have very little to do with each other.

There is a special beauty in all this, however. Calculate the risk, make a plan, set an autopilot - and then let the emotions run wild... Uh, .

The bottom line is that our brains are hard-wired for us to be land dwellers on two feet. This hard-wiring creates the voices in our heads as we climb towers or head toward and exit point. As we go along in our base careers, this hardwiring begins to yeild at a rate directly proportional to our experiences with base and the intensity of such actions. We become completely disfunctional and disconnected with the "walmart crowd" aka the general public or whuffos or whatever. My opinion is: I'll just enjoy the intoxicating affects of this hard-wiring breaking down while trying to stay alive as long as possible.

Now we throw drug use into the equation................

-Bryan

I love base like a fat kid loves cake

[greeny 0]

Quote.
[The bottom line is that our brains are hard-wired for us to be land dwellers on two feet. This hard-wiring creates the voices in our heads as we climb towers or head toward and exit point.]

Ever since I can remember, every time I've stood some where high ( up a tree, a first floor window, a tower block balcony, up a anntenna. I was climbing anntennas before I new BASE existed ), all I've wanted to do was jump. My problem isn't stepping off the edge, its talking myself into staying on it, when I go up high without my rig. I was never 'hard-wired' to the floor. They just forgot to give me wings.

[Faber 0]

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PerFlare replying
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I do not say that it is wrong. It is just a strange thing to do if you know that it is not true. It is a little bit like lying to your self and not really accept the consequences of your actions neither to your self or your family and love ones.

i do understand what your saying and this is just about writing the words correct,so i agree whith them.

what i wanted to say,is that i do trust my gear and myself 100%,but i know things can and somtimes does go wrong,that i acsept each time i jump,but trusting my gear and myself that i got the right "tools" to do the job,i dont think that is lying.t would bew if i trusted an xfire 99 on a 150ft SL jump(example).I do have the gear that can safe my life,i hopefuly has the knowlegede to use the gear and myself in a way that makes the jump "safe",there will always be %were things can go wrong.

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not really accept the consequences of your actions neither to your self or your family and love ones.

well i think i do.I know it hurts me and my loved once as i get injuryed or killed,i dont want either of them.I have told them what kind of sport this is,and what can happen.I also told them that even the day the gear and i preform perfect i still can die.

Its NOT a bulletproff sport(i never said but as said i dont see it black n whithe..
I see the chanceses for me getting injuryed bigger than killing myself,and if i cant get that aspect i wont jump...(ofcours i dont jump if i think i will get injuryed aswell)

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Faber 0]

mate your cool at exit point,you dont care about showing your emotions,that means that example i know its not time to make jokes(not that im good at jokes and atleast not at exit were i also is abit itchy)

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[Spiderbaby 0]

OK Yuri, I have done more Acid than any BASE jumper ever!

"It takes a big man to cry, it takes an even bigger man to make that big man cry"

[TVPB 0]

I think that each accident / incident IS preventable.

However, there is no way that we can prevent ALL accidents / incidents.

What do I mean by this? If you look at any event, there is a (or several) root cause or reason for the outcome. I don't believe that acts of god or influence from some parallel universe cause off headings, malfunctions, or bad landings in BASE jumping. The industrial / business world often use the "Swiss Chees" model of safety. This is where each component of a system is considered like a slice of swiss cheese. Examples in BASE jumping would include: equipment, equipment configuration & selection, jumper experience, jumper ability & attitude, level of difficulty of jump, equipment maintenance, weather conditions, physical & mental state of the jumper, etc. If you stuff up in a couple of these areas, there is a higher chance that you will be involved in an incident. i.e. if you are tired whilst hiking in poor weather and you get to an alternate exit point and decide to jump with gear that was configured for another type of jump. . . . . you are more likely t oend up dead.

Given sufficient data and the ability to analyse it, you will find a reason for your BASE mishap.

There are many examples of "I have no idea what happened". This is usually due to the jumper not having the data (all happened too quick and there was no accurate video), or the experience to determine the cause.

From all this mumbo jumbo - I think that in perfect conditions (physical, mental, emotional, technical, etc) that I will never die BASE jumping. However, I am far from perfect. I am human. And I am average at that. Hence, there is a chance that I will die BASE jumping. I have had some accidents, off headings, and not so great landings. In each case there was a logical cause that could have been prevented.

BASE jumping IS NOT dangerous!! It is the people (humans - mere mortals) that participate that make it dangerous. The danger comes from the decisions that we make. Whether they are controlled & calculated. Or made blindly by guessing.

You can jump a bridge a thousand times and not even come close to having an incident. Yet you can make one jump from a severely underhung low cliff with virtually no landing area and it could be your last jump.

It is your choice.

Make it a good one.

Stay Safe
Have Fun
Good Luck

Tom

[Erroll 80]

Disclaimer: I don't, nor will I ever, do Base.

In my opinion the statement "BASE jumping IS NOT dangerous!! It is the people (humans - mere mortals) that participate that make it dangerous." is devoid of any logic, very misleading and contrary to everything most folk have ever been taught about both skydiving and Base.

Having read and researced opinions of many very experienced Basers and skydivers, the consensus appears to be: "The sport is extremely dangerous and the successful participant is the one who manages the risks properly". This is usualy followed by the rider that "Even if you do everything right, you can still die".

[PerFlare 0]

Hi Tom,

I agree with something's you say but not with the conclusion you make from your reasoning, my conclusion from your line of reasoning is "there is a good chance but we are not bullet proof"

I do not think I ever done a jump and have had ALL the data. It has always been unknown variables, most times pretty small/unlikely as taking in to consideration having a small hesitation or more severe ones like a lineover or having a three ring release or linetwists and things like that. Then add factors as wingsuits or aerials and other stuff you will pretty much jump in a environment full of unknowns :) scary is it not? I believe so, and I get more scared for every year I am in the game :)

PerFlare

[mdbase 0]

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BASE jumping IS NOT dangerous!! It is the people (humans - mere mortals) that participate that make it dangerous. The danger comes from the decisions that we make. Whether they are controlled & calculated. Or made blindly by guessing.

No offense, but this doesn't really make any sense at all.
BASE jumping is dangerous and it's the human factor that makes it more safe. Once you commit and are in freefall, you are essentially dead - in a sort of purgatory. Your soul is waiting for you to make a decision. Any decision you make at that point has a greater chance of improving your situation than making it worse than it already is. Even if you end up fucked up.

To me, it's that simple. It's just common sense that if you are going to participate you need to be vigilant with your knowledge and prepared to your best ability.

-Bryan

-Bryan

I love base like a fat kid loves cake

[TomAiello 26]

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I think that each accident / incident IS preventable.

Of course it is. You can prevent any incident by not exiting. Skipping the jump guarantees you will not have a jumping accident on that jump.

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Given sufficient data and the ability to analyse it, you will find a reason for your BASE mishap.

I agree with this in theory. However, I do not believe that we are at a stage of technological development where we can even get close to having sufficient data. The systems involved in this sport are so complex, and our understanding of the dynamics is so primitive, that the best we can do is make our best generalized guesses, in many cases.

Even the most experienced jumpers today, with the most advanced gear currently available, are going to encounter many situations that are simply outside their understanding. This "black death factor" isn't going away any time real soon, in my opinion.

In general, I'd say that most jumpers do not sufficiently consider the variables of their jumps. So your point (that we can prevent many incidents by better understanding) is well taken. But I still think we're a long way from being able to understand everything that happens.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TVPB 0]

Hi Guys

I love throwing in the line: "BASE jumping IS NOT dangerous!! It is the people (humans - mere mortals) that participate that make it dangerous". It stirs emotions and makes people think!!!!!!

Erroll - the way we participate in the sport is what makes it extremely dangerous. Some jumps are more dangerous than others. If the sport itself was "extremely" dangerous, we would have lots more fatalities and serious accidents.

Per Flare - yes, there are unknowns. But most are unknown because we tend to ignore the information that is available or we do not have the experience to recognise that it is there. Throw in the factor that we get more scared as we add more complexity and our minds start struggling to absorb and assimilate all the info that is available. Our minds also tend to distort what information our senses pick up as the pressure increases. How often do you hear someone say, "I did 4 seconds delay off that cliff" - and the video shows 2.5 seconds!!!!!

mdbase - I think differently to you when I make a jump. I stand on the edge and consider all the things that can go wrong. I then devise an action plan for each scenario so that I don't have to think of it whilst the potential incident is happening. This saves time and minimises the chance of confusion in a high pressure situation. I just have to act it out if it happens. I am alive until I make a bad decision or my reaction is too slow or incorrect. Your logis seems to be that you are dead until you make a good decision, and that decision is made up as you go. Your last statement I totally agree with. Essentially the aim is the same in both sets of logic - to maintain life.

Tom - r.e. not jumping - you are thinking of the highest factor in the hierarchy of hazard control. Lets face it - this is not a long term option. But it could be a good short term option. There are many more levels of control that will help minimise the likelihood or prevent an incident. These include personal protective equipment, substituting another jump site, jumping at another time (to allow for weather and experience etc), using different gear, etc. You are absolutely correct about the stage of the sports evolution. But we have improved exponentially over the last 5 years or so and are always improving. The fact is that too many of us are too busy to research the sport - we would rather be out jumping! Don't forget that I have made assumptions such as "given sufficient data and the ability to analyse it" - this is theory, real life is different.

p.s. I actually believe BASE "can be" very dangerous. But the level of danger (risk) is dependant on a whole lot of factors that each jumper can ignore or take into account and act on. You still have to respect the sport. But each of us is responsible for the outcome for each jump we make. It is up to each of us to arm ourselves with as much knowledge, experience, and skill to keep ourselves safe and have fun.

p.s.s. r.e. the following comment - "I think that each accident / incident IS preventable." What I mean by this is: if we study each incident, we would more than likely find a reason or several reasons why it happened or ways in which we could have prevented it from happening.

p.s.s. if an idea or opinion does not make sense it could be for a number of reasons:
- we chose not to understand it
- our interpretation was different to the intended meaning
- it was poorly communicated
- perhaps it does not make sense
- we wrote it at 3am

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.