One Toggle not functional. Land on both rears or one rear and one toggle?

[LongWayToFall 0]

So, you just had a line over on your reserve, and you used your hook knife to cut the brake line and clear the malfunction. Now you only have one good toggle/brake. Do you land using both rears, or one toggle and one rear?
Discuss.

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Neither. Lost my hook knife last weekend so I'd have a fun ride down.

[labrys 0]

I wouldn't be comfortable mixing riders and toggles. It seems like a silly idea to me, but perhaps someone will convince me otherwise.

...seems too easy to do it asymmetrically and risk a rougher than necessary landing.

Owned by Remi #?

[skydiverek 63]

Cut the other steering line, land with rears.

[Squeak 17]

chop the main and land with 2 toggles,

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[labrys 0]

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chop the main and land with 2 toggles,

The question was about a reserve. I assumed that cutting a reserve away wasn't an option.

Owned by Remi #?

[hookitt 1]

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Cut the other steering line, land with rears.

FUCK no.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[labrys 0]

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FUCK no.

No to cutting the other steering line or no to landing with rears?

Why would it be necessary to cut the other steering line anyway? Why not just release the brake?

Owned by Remi #?

[hookitt 1]

I would use a toggle and a riser and prepare for a proper PLF. There is much more control keeping the toggle. Have you practiced PLFs?

I have landed 7 cell canopies with 1 riser and 1 toggle. I've landed with just rears. Because of that experience I would be comfortable doing a riser/toggle landing on my small reserve. I would be ok with just rears but it would not be my first choice. I would PLF whether I needed to or not.

If you ever get the chance to jump a demo reserve, do it. Practice flying one riser and one toggle. Practice flare and use multiple control options to get used to a small 7 cell.

If for some reason the cut brake line scenario really came to pass, Steer to a safe area and PLF needs to be top on your list. Light control inputs. Practice flare as altitude permits.

If you use just risers, I hope you practiced that also. It's VERY easy to stall on risers. Time and again people tend to over flare riser only landings. I'm not talking about rear riser swoop landings, I'm talking straight in approach to big landing area.

It's easy to flare too high and too hard.

You may have noticed the mention of a PLF. A good PLF not only looks good but they save you if you're in doubt.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[angryelf 0]

Use the good toggle to steer, Use your rears to land.

Won't get as much tail deflection, have more chance to stall the canopy. But-You can ensure the inputs will be more symmetrical. Hopefully you get a chance to find the riser stall point before you land...

Might be a different story if I were jumping a smaller reserve than I am, too.

"Sometimes you eat the bar,
and well-sometimes the bar eats you..."

[hookitt 1]

No to cutting the other one. The brake line offers control if it's in the guide ring. It holds the tail in place and offers more stability. If you remove it, not only did you lose a control input, you made the canopy less stable, especially in turbulent air.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[DocPop 1]

Are seven cells (reserves in particular) more prone to sudden stalls on the rears than 9 cells?

I realize that there are a lot of 7 cells and a lot of 9 cells with different responses to inputs, but is there a generalization you could make?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[DocPop 1]

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Use the good toggle to steer, Use your rears to land.

I assume you have cut the "hung" brake line in this scenario?

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[billvon 2,991]

Release both toggles, land using rear risers.

[hookitt 1]

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Are seven cells (reserves in particular) more prone to sudden stalls on the rears than 9 cells?

I realize that there are a lot of 7 cells and a lot of 9 cells with different responses to inputs, but is there a generalization you could make?

Short answer, no.

Long answer ... It's not particularly more prone to stalling. People tend to over flare when simply flaring with risers for the first time. Even on a simple straight in approach.

Think non, swooper, conservative canopy pilot. Now he just had his first reserve ride. Chances are it was also a nerve racking experience. Now, for whatever reason, he has 1 missing toggle and chooses to unstow and not touch the other toggle. Some folks simply forget how to fly a parachute because... oh my god, it's a reserve!!! don't do anything. (Do you know what I mean here?)

Most canopies of today have a long control stroke when landing with toggles. A riser landing consists of pulling down the risers only a few inches. It's very easy to over do it because it's generally quite easy to pull down the rears.

Almost always, even if it's only a slightly speed enhanced landing, the flare begins fairly high.

So, take those 2 trait of a main caopy. Long toggle stroke, higher flair point. It's what you know and what is often what a person reverts back to under stress.

Now have a reserve ride. The reserve is controlled by the same inputs but it handles completely different. If you lose the toggles altogether and just use risers, you best do it correctly. The person is already amped. If he reverts back to what seems normal, the control input is likely too high, and too much.

A straight in riser landing must be done closer to the ground, smooth and fairly quick so it levels out. That's it. If you flare it high it will plane out some if you flared remotely correct. If you hold it, then flare even more, you pendulum in front of it, it falls off backward rather quickly and dumps you on your back.

Brief enough :)

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[hookitt 1]

By the way, my answer pertains to me because I know how canopies fly and land using both options.

I do not teach my AFF students to land with 1 of each in case of a broken brake line. I teach them to do a control check, practice flaring. Sort it out, because large student canopies can land easily on the rears but it's still a LOT less of a flare.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[DocPop 1]

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Quote

Are seven cells (reserves in particular) more prone to sudden stalls on the rears than 9 cells?

I realize that there are a lot of 7 cells and a lot of 9 cells with different responses to inputs, but is there a generalization you could make?

Short answer, no.



Brief enough :)

Yeah - very useful actually. Thanks.

I understand what you're saying. The best time to learn a rear riser stall point is not when you've just had an emergency and are flying a canopy you've probably flown less than 20 times (or in my case never).

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[johnmatrix 21]

I would not attempt to flare my reserve on rears or anything but the toggles having never tried it before.
I might attempt to slow it down a little but I would attempt to absorb as much as I could with a PLF.
I'd rather break my legs than stall on rears, land on my back with a Cypres between my spine and the ground.

[JohnnyMarko 1]

Really? My post got deleted on this? First time I'm surprised one of my posts got deleted.

[Skyper 0]

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you just had a line over on your reserve.

chance of this happening is so small that this subject is not worth discusson. I'd say beware who do you allow to pack your reserve.

[LongWayToFall 0]

Well, yes. But it can happen. What about the BASE environment? Probably happens there more often. I can assure you I trust my rigger 100%, he is very very experienced. This is more of a "what if", and also because I have heard conflicting information.

The PLF idea is a good one, and yes I have practiced them. I have also gotten a chance to use them, since I have been putting a few jumps in on lightnings.... hahaha!

I have also done a number of stalls with the rears, they do indeed stall the canopy without much input at all. I have not tried cross controlling with toggle/rear though, I think I might give it a shot on my next jump. I wonder if it would create a flat turn effect of sorts? Considering the brake offers lift AND drag, where the riser really only provides lift. It would be sort of like a turn while the canopy is still directly overhead, if that makes sense.

Anyways, thanks for all of the input, this is a good topic.

[Andy9o8 2]

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you just had a line over on your reserve.

chance of this happening is so small that this subject is not worth discusson. I'd say beware who do you allow to pack your reserve.

Are you serious? That's just silly. Reserves can and do malfunction - especially since they not infrequently deploy when the jumper is in the midst of all sorts of chaos.

The best way to be prepared is to be prepared.

[Mac 1]

I have been in this situation and flared with risers but keeping hold of the toggle, although with a bigger 7 Cell F1-11 than my reserve. Just be aware that the toggle side will have a different effect on your canopy than the non toggle side when flaring on risers as you will still have some input on the control lines with the toggle, and would be more noticible with a smaller reserve. Should this occur on my reserve, I would flare on both risers holding the remaining toggle...... and prepare for the mother of all PLFs just incase.

To flare using a toggle and a riser, on a canopy you are not used to, and no doubt using a control method you have never used is asking for trouble. At least you can practice rear riser flares and get an understanding of the dynamics of it to at least prepare somewhat.

PLF PLF PLF PLF PLF PLF PLF PLF PLF PLF PLF PLF PLF PLF PLF PLF PLF

[billvon 2,991]

>chance of this happening is so small . . .

Adam Callahan, 2002 or so. Lineover on tandem reserve. Landed very hard but both he and student were OK.

[BETO74 0]

Did he cut the toggle and landed rear riser? or just landed a overlined using toggles?

http://web.mac.com/ac057a/iWeb/AC057A/H0M3.html