toggle / excess / break setting hang ups

[BASE813 0]

just interested in hearing if anyone has experienced a hang up that once they pop their toggles if you had any such hang up where say the excess caught, or perhaps the break setting did not release - BUT the toggle had released............. i realise that a simple hang up like this is noticed right away due to noticing the canopy flight, and you probably popped it straight out without thinking about it and probably not gave it another thought - has anyone made any mental notes and investigated it though??

I have recently heard of some incidents some people have had, that would normally have gone unnoticed had it not been for other facotrs - I just wondered if any other people have had these and what you put these down too and whether you made any adjustments due to your findings..................

thanks

Michael

[Zennie 0]

Yeah I've had that happen a fair number of times. The excess was stored behind the rear riser and would occasionally stick. A couple of hard tugs freed it.

Since I've moved my toggles up the lines and effectively reduced the excess, that problem seems to have resolved itself.

My personal take is that the more excess you have to stash, the more likely it is to bunch up and stick.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[BASE813 0]

did it have any effect on your canopy after you popped your toggles? did you find it turned after you popped? did it react funny?

was this on new gear? on well jumped gear? when did you find this happening?


just interested...........

[Zennie 0]

It induced a slight turn in the direction of the hung-up toggle. So I'd correct with the other toggle and yank hard a few times until it released.

It seemed to get more frequent recently, as the gear had more & more jumps put on it. So yes, wear may also be a factor... the lines and the stowing material would be more frayed and less "slick".

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[base689 0]

> just interested in hearing if anyone has experienced a hang up that once they pop their toggles...
Yes indeed. I bought and put in use on my Prism-Fox 245 Multi Vtec+cover the WLO risers+toggles system by Vertigo. I jumped them for a while while going slider off, with the intention NOT to change the system when I would have gone slider up off our terminal wall (where, in case of a slider up jump, just in case of a line over (touch wood) they could have been effective of some utility).
So, to make a long story short, I jumped the WLO toggles for a while doing only slider off jumps.
Just a quick note: the WLO toggles, apart from the line release mechanism, are made with a straight stainless pin that goes into the keeper onto the riser and a stainless snap button that keeps it (in addition to the keeper) locked in position.
The snap worked realy fine to keep the toggle set in position. The snap worked so fine indeed that on a night jump off our local A that didn't allow me to release the toggles.
After having grabbed both toggles and yanked down as usual to release them, I started to make a turn to present myself up wind for the final. But something looked weird in my flight, I was pulling down my right toggle, but the canopy didn't quite turn. I looked at my right hand (I have a permantly taped onto my helmet speleo light that I ALWAYS turn on in ALL my night jumps) and I discovered the matter: the snap was still in its closed position, and any attempt of mine to release the toggle by pulling down, simply resulted in a pulling down of ALL the right rear part of canopy, because (via the locked toggle) I was pulling down the whole rear right riser.
After the fifth/sixth attempt, finally the toggle released and the jump ended with an uneventful stand up landing.
From the following jump I assembled back the original BR risers and big grab toggles by Morpheus.
Until I got the "line release" big grab version by Morpheus that I am currently using.
Honestly, the "line release" big grab has the negative side of being a real pain in the @ss to be assembled; but, once assembled, they look like a standard big grab pair of toggles, with a nearly to zero tendency to hang up.
The above is my humble experience.
Just my very humble 0.02€

Stay safe out there
Blue Skies and Soft Walls
BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com

[BASE813 0]

interesting you say old........... I was hoping that other experiences were from brand new gear!!

I would like to hear from people also with this happening with brand spanking new gear..............

thanks

[BASE813 0]

thanks again andrea for yet another thoughtful post!!! i like ya style!!!

i had the vertigo "pop" toggles and had no problem with them at all............. although someone that jumped my gear had one pop toggle not release (i just thought it limp wristed!! hehehehe)

I know some people have had problems with these toggles due to bent pins etc - but having never experienced this i cant say anything but good reports for them!

I am asking this (as you may have guessed) that one of the things that built up toward my injury is that I had a break setting hang up - now normally this is not a major problem itself but there were other factors that also joined up with this and caused me to take some hospital time!

thanks

Michael

[jimmyp 0]

Whenever something like this happens it concerns us greatly. We have been using snaps with great success for 15 years. About 8 years back, we moved the snap to just the inside of the toggle(rather than through both layers of type 4)to make the action of unstowing the toggle identical to a normal skydiving toggle (a peeling motion on the Velcro and snap). We feel to this day that the snap is awesome for preventing a premature brake release. One thing that could happen is that by grabbing the bottom of the toggle you would be trying to shear the velcro downward rather than peel it. The shearing motion of Velcro far outweighs the peeling motion(thus the invention of the shrivel flap). Any toggle will pull the riser down if you grab the very bottom of the grab loop and pull straight down. The only other scenario we have heard of the snap hanging up is if the snap gets loose(you can spin it with your fingers). You can easily retighten the snap. We are always open to customer's feedback and never assume that we have all of the answers or can forsee every situation as it happens in the field.

As far as the loop hanging up in the brake setting, this does occasionally happen to everyone's system now and again, moreso when the loop is new and therefore stiffer. We always recommend that when you unstow your brakes you should pull down far enough to pull the brake setting off the loop(about the chest level although the larger canopies have more brake line distance from the cat's eye to the toggle. The main problem with the loop is that you cannot sacrifice strength for thinness. A smaller line used for the loop doesn't hang up, but has the possibility of breaking. Spectra is a nice solution, but frays more easily than Dacron. Type 2A sheath is great for not fraying and is supple enough to never hang up, but doesn't have the sufficient strength over time. Many manufacturers have been using 500 pound Dacron due to it's strength and resistance to fraying, but it is a bit thick and has been known to hang up on occasion. This is the loop we are using now and it rarely does hang up, but again, we always recommend to clear the traps off of the loops upon unstowing your brakes on every jump, no matter whose toggles/risers you are using.
Thanks,
Jimmy and Marta
Vertigo Base Outfitters

[TomAiello 26]

Can everyone who's had this happen list the style of gear it happened on?

I've had:

Brake setting hung on LRT's (thick loop)--twice
Excess line hung up on elastic behind the riser--twice

I've never had the excess line hang up in a velcro pocket style riser, but the majority of my jumps are on elastic keeper band, so I'm not sure that means anything.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[pringles 0]

I have a set of LRT's with the elastic keeper on the front of the riser and have not had a hang up with my excess line. I have had one break setting hang up once on the loop. Since then I have made a conscience effort to clear the break setting every time I release the toggles.

Matt Davies

[Zennie 0]

Quote

Can everyone who's had this happen list the style of gear it happened on?

I had a couple of hangups at the toggle level when I was using the WLOs.

The vast majority of my hangups have been in the elastic keeper band behind the rear riser.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[hookitt 1]

How are you storing the excess?

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[BASE813 0]

Seems like this more of an issue that I had first thought...........

Generally these slight hang ups wont cause a problem if you are opening with height to spare.........

I have had one happen where I was jumping a highish opening object (2sec delay from 315ft) and on having the issue clearing it did not cause a major problem as I had plenty of height to deal with it - in fact I did not even really give it a major thought. BUT having one of these happen on low opening / low freefalls and then the way you deal with it can really can ruin a beautiful night.........

I have never had a excess hang up and I have elastic keepers to stow the excess.

I am sure that the "newness" of the gear was something that can cause a break setting hang up - and maybe some caution and breaking in of the gear should be done before you start taking your new gear to the lower limits of your excepted risk area. Obviously this is just my thoughts after the horse has bolted and perhaps in retrospect is a fucking obvious thing to say........ but come on guys, there are always areas where a do as I say not as I do happens hey!!!

[Zennie 0]

Quote

How are you storing the excess?

I fished all of the excess down through the keeper band and then looped the "under excess" back up into it, if that makes any sense. So unside the band, the excess would be in a "U" shape.

Since I moved my toggles up the lines, I only have enough excess to fish it down, not back up again. And, oddly enough , the problem went away.

I think when you start loop-de-doing the excess in that rear keeper, it can bunch up when you pull down on the toggles.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[baseclimb 0]

Dude,

My WLO toggles/risers from Vertigo made me very use to hang-ups. Get a pair, and in a month or two, you'll handle it very 'naturally'. Mostly/only with S/down, (which is not recommended with WLO, I know.) Hence, if I jump a lot of SD only, I use my standard risers. It might be a bad thing, like 180's, but getting them and learn to deal with it, makes me feel better next time they are around. I'ts like driving an old car you have to double-cluth to get it into gear.

Also, I learned to make sure I pull hard down, and not just to release the toggles, but to pull all the break line out of all the 'tangles'. Standard procedure now on WLO.

P.S. They never let you know when they will visit.