ramon 0 #1 January 15, 2004 Ok, I have a question but we need to step back for a moment. Let us assume I know someone with a canopy that opens very hard about 50% of the time. Lets dispense with packing method and saying "you should jump this it opens good" lets accept the fact that some canopies open inherently hard Lets assume a person can control their slider stops and is able to make a very good pack job that can sometimes cause reasonable openings on this canopy. What do you think could be done by a rigger to slow down an opening, reliably and why. These are my ideas and I was wondering if and which have merit. 1. bigger slider (I have heard this does not always help) 2. lighter grommets (if you beleive in slider rebound, aluminum grommets have less mass andmight slow the slider coming down compared to brass or steel) 3. Pocket slider (is ther anything about these that has proven to not be the best option). 4. custom one off baloon slider (I have only seen one of these used on a hard opening FX). I appreciate your input. My goal was not to start a canopy bashing or get in to a packing method spree. Packing methods have been explored on this one. thanks all ramon P.S. My canoy opens very soft but if I do a really poor job controlling my slider and line stowes I can make it open hard too, there all different"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
payback462 0 #2 January 15, 2004 i would say pocket slider, when i worked at sq3 we put one on a sabre 190 that was smacking people left and right, since then its been VERY soft VERY reliable openings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #3 January 15, 2004 Quote1. bigger slider (I have heard this does not always help) It doesn't always help, in fact sometimes a smaller slider helps. Quote2. lighter grommets (if you beleive in slider rebound, aluminum grommets have less mass andmight slow the slider coming down compared to brass or steel) Slider grommets are usually either stainless steel or brass. I don't think it makes much of a difference, if at all. (Most reserves have brass grommets and we know how they open) Quote3. Pocket slider (is ther anything about these that has proven to not be the best option). I have had great sucess with adding a pocket to the front of a slider to tame the openings. Quote4. custom one off baloon slider (I have only seen one of these used on a hard opening FX). I'vee seen them before too. PD Sigmas have a domed slider. Another good option, but expensive to make than a pocket. It is possible to make the slider smaller and more of a domed shape with some sewing, but I've never tried it. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #4 January 15, 2004 My $.02... Quote1. bigger slider (I have heard this does not always help) This is a tough call. I've seen it go both ways. Most recently with a bigger slider hurting the opening characteristics. This is more in depth than just "bigger" or "smaller" and I think only the mfg. (or someone with LOTS of time on their hands to experiment) is really going to be able to make this sort of change and make it work. It's a very technical undertaking to change a slider design. A change in one dimension may create a different problem, while a change in the other dimension may enhance that problem, reduce it, or just change it some more... Quote2. lighter grommets (if you beleive in slider rebound, aluminum grommets have less mass andmight slow the slider coming down compared to brass or steel) Can't hurt. Might help, but I'm not sure it's going to make that big a difference in a canopy that's as bad off as the one we're talking about. Again, it can't hurt. Quote3. Pocket slider (is ther anything about these that has proven to not be the best option). IMO, this is the best option with the most chance of fixing the problem. Unfortunately, it's not really a "fix". It's more of a permanent band-aide...which might be just as good as a "fix". I just hate the idea of a band-aide being the best way to go, but sometimes it is... Quote4. custom one off baloon slider (I have only seen one of these used on a hard opening FX). See my answer to number 1.... "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #5 January 15, 2004 Quote1. bigger slider (I have heard this does not always help) Can be more of a problem. If the new larger slider alows the line gorups too much spread initialy, then instant bottom skin inflation will over power the sliders resistance, and rocket it to the botom. Quote2. lighter grommets (if you beleive in slider rebound, aluminum grommets have less mass andmight slow the slider coming down compared to brass or steel) Yes. Good. But you can't use em w/ vectran line. Quote3. Pocket slider (is ther anything about these that has proven to not be the best option). Could have the advantage of being the easiest solution. Can do wonders for a "problem canopy" Quote4. custom one off baloon slider (I have only seen one of these used on a hard opening FX). Complex to build compared to a standard slider. May not fix the problem in it's current dimentions, and then you get back to the problem of changing the size. I'd start with the least expensive, easiest, most likely to work solution first and then move on if that doesn't work. In this case, try the slider pocket. Bet your rigger won't charge much more than $30 to $40 for T&M.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #6 January 16, 2004 Your problem description is exactly the problem I was having with a Triathlon 210. My solution was to have a custom slider built that was 15% larger in the front-to-back dimension."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #7 January 16, 2004 hey ramen (noodle), as most have agreed, and given your options, it was my initial insinuation that a pocket slider is your best bet. if you want to talk more about it, you know where i am. see you at the dz (or zen's) soon. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #8 January 16, 2004 QuoteQuote2. lighter grommets (if you beleive in slider rebound, aluminum grommets have less mass andmight slow the slider coming down compared to brass or steel) Yes. Good. But you can't use em w/ vectran line. Why not? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jedeisurf 0 #9 January 16, 2004 Your best bet is to have him buy a crossfire or go for the pocket slider worked well on my jedei's David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #10 January 16, 2004 QuoteWhy not? Pretty sure the vectran will just cut through the softer metal of brass and aluminum. The grommets and lines won't last very long. I agree with the pocket deal. I had one put on a sabre a few years back, and it was like a light switch. Much better openings.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #11 January 16, 2004 Quote Your best bet is to have him buy a crossfire hmmm I don't think that is the "best bet" so I'll help my buddy get a pocket slider."Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ramon 0 #12 January 16, 2004 Hey Brat-ney. Not for me, but I'll put you in the right direction at the DZ. You'll understand. ramon"Revolution is an abrupt change in the form of misgovernment.", Ambrose Bierce. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #13 January 16, 2004 Could someone explain what pocket / baloon sliders are please? Any pics around? I've never heard of either of them... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #14 January 16, 2004 A variation on pocket sliders is Weird Wayne's modification. His Weirdness believes that it is important to add pockets to both the front and rear of the slider so it descends evenly. To that end, Wayne sews strips of slider tape (outboard of the existing slider) to both the front and rear edges of the existing slider, then folds the tape to form small pockets. Wayne has even sewn narrow pockets along all four edges of Sabre sliders to soften the openings for photographers. I tried that on my Sabre 170, but after a few scary hop-and-pops removed the pockets from the outboard edges. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pablito 0 #15 January 16, 2004 Ramon, I have a great design for a pocket slider, Brit i can show it to you this weekend Cielos Azules Pablito "If you don't overcome your fears they will overcome you first" Shady Monkey/6Segundos Rodriguez/AKA Pablito Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #16 January 16, 2004 A pocket slider is a small, ram air pocket that is sewn onto the leading edge of the slider. It's made out of ZP (usually) and is simply a little pouch that catches air. You can change the dimensions to provide more or less drag, but we tend to make them as deep as half the slider's depth (cordial), and as wide as 3/4 of the slider's width (span wise). As the slider starts to descend, the pocket inflates and slows it down. It's a great way to slow down hard opening canopies, and was a very common fix on Monarchs, Sabres, etc.. They're very easy to build and work well. A balloon slider (or "domed" slider) is basically built in three dimensions instead of two, like a normal slider. When it's descending, the slider inflates and looks "domed". The idea is that it's collecting more air, and thus creating more drag (more surface area). They're most commonly seen on Tandem Canopies and seem to work rather well...but they're difficult to engineer and build on a one-off basis. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #17 January 16, 2004 QuoteWhy not? There's something about the make-up of the vectran line that reacts with the brass gromets, and produces friction grooves in them. Dosen't occur with Spectra, Dacron, or HMA. Just Vectran. It's another reason I don't like the stuff. Too bad I have to have it on my new canopy. (At least untill it needs its first re-line!)---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #18 January 16, 2004 lol, thanks and pabs that would be coolio. i've put one on a slider before but its great to check out other methods and idears. we'll see ya then! _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #19 January 16, 2004 QuoteOk, I have a question but we need to step back for a moment. Let us assume I know someone with a canopy that opens very hard about 50% of the time. Lets dispense with packing method and saying "you should jump this it opens good" lets accept the fact that some canopies open inherently hard Lets assume a person can control their slider stops and is able to make a very good pack job that can sometimes cause reasonable openings on this canopy. What do you think could be done by a rigger to slow down an opening, reliably and why. These are my ideas and I was wondering if and which have merit. 1. bigger slider (I have heard this does not always help) 2. lighter grommets (if you beleive in slider rebound, aluminum grommets have less mass andmight slow the slider coming down compared to brass or steel) 3. Pocket slider (is ther anything about these that has proven to not be the best option). 4. custom one off baloon slider (I have only seen one of these used on a hard opening FX). I appreciate your input. My goal was not to start a canopy bashing or get in to a packing method spree. Packing methods have been explored on this one. thanks all ramon P.S. My canoy opens very soft but if I do a really poor job controlling my slider and line stowes I can make it open hard too, there all different Try adjusting the deployment brake settings, make them about 2" shorter. This will serve to allow the canopy cells to fill more slowly as the forward speed is diminished somwhat and the canopy will stay in a "scoop" configuration longer. The bang occurs when the canopy is rapidly pressureized. Ask a local rigger to show you how to half hitch and daisy chain your lower control lines so that you can experiment with different settings. A few years ago some ram airs were built with out a finger trap loop for the toggle, just a black mark on the line to indicate the brake setting. it was modeled after the 4 line release lanyards. But I emphasize use caution when experimenting with your control settings. Always make minor adjustments to the deployment settings not major ones (4-6") as you may not like the results (read: it could be dangerous to your body). Good luck. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
betzilla 56 #20 January 17, 2004 I am the customer service person at an Icarus factory service center, and here's what we've done for hard openings: Slider pockets can work. But if you only do one pocket, it cause your slider to stand up on one edge during opening, thus come down even faster (one of our customers had this problem -- HARDER openings with a new pocket, until we added a second). Not common, but it does happen. So two pockets are better than one, for symmetry's sake. By far the option that makes people happiest, is a dome (you called it "balloon") slider. It is hardly more expensive than a dual-lipped slider, and is much more cosmetically pleasing. We've used them as a fix for Icarus canopies, PD canopies, Samurais... If it's opening hard, a dome slider can fix it. Feel free to PM me with questions -- I'm not the Icarus rigger, but I'll get you an answer. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
