blown toggles

[leroydb 0]

flame me or whatever, but I feel the need to share the following.

today I did a hop n pop with my base main in a skydiving rig. jumped 3500, pulled at 2200. played under canopy, brakes, rear risers, combinations thereof. Found out I likes just useing rear risers to flair as opposed to one toggle, one riser.

then tonight. base jump from 350 ft. handheld. jump and had an onheading opening, but my left toggle blew out.

I reached for it 2 times, glanced and realized it had "blew" off. I then drop the other toggle, set up for landing useing rear risers. Flaired ok, could have been a tad lower, or flaired a tad softer. But had a soft landing none-the-less.

In my mind I believe I did the right thing, one I am alive and two I was calm throught it all.

Question being, what causes or can cause, or has been known to cause blown toggles in your situtations?

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[savebase 0]

If you get flamed, I'm sure it's by skydivers that think they know about BASE.

You've probably got more BASE jumps than me, but from what I was taught by my mentor and others, you did the right thing. I was always taught that if one toggle goes, drop the other one and land with rear risers.

I'm not sure what would cause a blown toggle, but maybe weak velcro?? Post on Mick's site, you'll probably get some better replies.

[hookitt 1]

When a toggle blows, most of the time its because it wasn't set properly. It's fairly new equipment for you so just double and triple check it from this point onward.

Did anything come apart such as the locking loop of the catseye?

I've seen several toggles blow and all but one of them was due to a misrig.

It sounds like the skydive you made with your BASE canopy was good time investment. Good on you Leroy. It's fairly common to over flair when landing with risers and stall it. Again, good work man!

[Zennie 0]

The one time I lost a toggle, I tossed the other one and landed with both rears. Just seemed more "symmetric", for lack of a better term.

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Question being, what causes or can cause, or has been known to cause blown toggles in your situtations?

Besides not setting the brakes properly, I know of at least one situation where the person forgot to bring the brake stow loop through the keeper rings.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[hookitt 1]

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Besides not setting the brakes properly, I know of at least one situation where the person forgot to bring the brake stow loop through the keeper rings.

I'm sorry man but that's wide open

The way I read that, is it wasn't set properly ???

[Zennie 0]

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The way I read that, is it wasn't set properly

I think we have a difference in semantics here.

When I think "set" I think tensioning the steering lines so that there isn't any slack.

My example was of the brakes not being stowed properly.

Potato, potaahhhto.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[hookitt 1]

Ok... then we'll use both!

Brakes set/stowed = ready to jump.

Tensioning is just double checking the brakes are stowed/set properly

What ever Potatoe

[TomAiello 26]

What kind of toggle and riser?

Specifically, was it a pin toggle?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Faber 0]

What you did were the same thing i had learned,i never practiced it before i had a blown toogle,tossed the other one and made a rear riser stall.
whith this as the out come http://www.vertical-visions.com/27xrays.html (im the one in the top)

after i went back i did start making lower jumps,jumps were i didnt had time to pop toogles,which i landed rear riser.I got one blown toogle,and landed the same way Tom landed his in LB(he might post the link to the vid,i wont as i dont know if its ok by him).
Both times whith no injuryes.My impression is that i guess ill keep what is good and make the best out of it.

Rear riser stalls are easy to do,only thing is for sure..each jump you warlk away from whith out a scratch is a good jump.Hell even the jump were i broke my leg were a good jump,well atleast untill i broke it

Good skills Leroy,you did the right thing as you didnt got hurt.As long as you keep it that way you did the right thing.(unless your actions gets your mates hurt or killed).

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[DexterBase 1]

I had a toggle blow on a McConkey! Go figure... if there was a type of jump where I'd expect a toggle fire to NEVER happen, it would be a McConkey. I'm not sure if I mis-rigged something (very unlikely because I'm very anal-retentive when it comes to gear, but still possible) or dragged the toggle across the rail as I climbed over.

Anyhow. I went for the toggle, I'm usually very quick on the toggles, and it was gone. I was going to hang onto the other one and flare with both risers but I decided to see how the canopy would land on just risers. That landing area ian't much different than a DZ so it was a relatively safe place to try it. I tossed the other toggle and flew it in on just risers.

The landing went smoothly even though there was no wind.

In the future if I still have a toggle I will keep it in my hand and flare with both risers. I don't like the idea of flaring with one riser and one toggle. I think the chances of flaring unevenly are too great and you could get hurt.

Just my humble opinion.

[leroydb 0]

it was my gargoyle/ BJ260 setup using CR statndard risers, no pins.

I would liketo thank everyone for the constructive comments made, and lack of flamage. This has been pretty helpful.

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[Faber 0]

you didnt give a reasson to flame you,so why should we

Besides that,then not only you learn from a tread like this,we all do

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[460 0]

Depends...

I had an inferior toggle system years ago that would blow out 25% of the time. It was a zoo toggle setup provided by a BASE manufacturer. It was simply out of tolerance in its construction and I modified it to prevent such failures.

As part of basic BASE training, all jumpers should know how to fly and land with rear risers alone (with toggles released), as well as fly with a single toggle and a single riser. Rear riser flight alone can be unforgiving in the flair especially above concrete if it is not mastered beforehand.

Consider also that your canopy will open in a turn upon release of a toggle, with noticably more rotation with a deeper toggle setting.

If properly set, do the toggles work their way out easily? Imagine part of the pack catching the toggle during the initial stages of the canopy extraction. Much of your question can be resolved by you by experimenting with your equipment on the ground.

Or are you reaching your arms upwards towards the risers at a very early stage and potentially applying a snag point for one of your toggles? (Prematurely raising your arms to go for toggles and risers is a terrible habit that should be abandoned)

Looks like a death sandwich without the bread - Steve Deadman Morrell, BASE 174

[jasonf 0]

Line Mod is obsolete. This is my opinion only and in no way do I suggest people should stop using line mod.

I stopped using line mod about 2 years ago. I simply keep the brake line through the slider and keeper ring and place the toggle directly in the brake setting, just the same as slider up. I do not use the extra loop as it can hold the brake line after releasing the toggle. The main reason for this was when standing at the exit point I felt more comfortable knowing my pack job had the same brake line set up every time (not necessarily the same brake setting). The reasons for this were mainly local, I was jumping a slider up object a lot which would have meant changing my brake lines regularly and the most common jumps up here are slider down with 1000 foot + canopy rides. This led to me thinking about how important it was to use line mod.

I know of no incidents where a line mod has corrected a malfunction where a tailgate was used, I’m not saying it hasn’t happened just I don’t know of any cases and I have tried hard to find one. I believe the chances of line mod saving me on a line over slider down are slim. If line mod worked so well I don’t believe the tailgate would have been invented. I have witnessed toggles release on opening twice, a slider up jump with line mod as well as 3 new jumpers using LRT incorrectly. There are also numerous stories of incidents of line mod being used incorrectly resulting in near misses, injury and one possibly resulting in a death (The List #55). I know the answer should be to never get it wrong but jumpers with less than 10 and more than 500 jumps have gotten it wrong. I am honest enough to admit that it is possible one day while packing multiple rigs slider up and down late at night with distractions I may get it wrong.

I estimate that you would have to do a go and throw from 400 feet with an overhung object to give yourself a reasonable chance of line mod saving you. If someone has a better idea of how much height is required to clear a line over, correct heading and land safely it would be appreciated. For me on every slider down jump if I was to use line mod the risk of a packing mistake, dropping a toggle after opening and the added difficulty in flying the canopy is not justified. In the era of multiple rigs it can be a battle just to remember where the slider is without being concerned with multiple brake configurations as well.

It is important to analyze individual cases but it is more important to review all jumps and incidents that have happened in the past 5 years and review them as a whole. If you do this I believe the case for using line mod is weak. At best it becomes a case of personal preference in regard to flight characteristics but I see no case for added safety.

Slider up jumping is where I believe the risk of a line over is. People generally seem to be quite content to accept this risk and I have never seen anyone get worked up about jumping slider up without a hook knife or any other means of clearing a potential line over.

I have not seen any release toggles that I would use as they either require you to release the toggle and the brake in such a way it would probably require the use of 2 hands while your canopy is turning uncontrolled. The Vertigo toggle is single action but uses a pin and press stud. I have only ever heard bad things about press studs. I believe any advantages gained from using these toggles would not out way the disadvantages. Since I have stopped using line mod I have ensured all my rigs have a hook knife, it may not save me but I see no disadvantages of having it. I also make sure to always have spare tailgates.

This is my opinion only and we all have to live with our own choices.

Jason Fitz-Herbert

[DexterBase 1]

This is an interesting point. How many documented linovers have occured while the jumper was using a properly configured tailgate? I am unaware of any.

While I choose to continue using the line release mod and tailgate, and I will continue using it until there is solid logic to quit doing so. Personally I like the option of being able to toss a toggle to clear a linover.

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I estimate that you would have to do a go and throw from 400 feet with an overhung object to give yourself a reasonable chance of line mod saving you.

I disagree with this point. As soon as you realize you have a linover you can toss the offending control line and clear the malfunction. At that point you will need to be ultra-quick and on your shit to correct your heading and set up for landing. Even if you only get a 10% chance of landing the jump uninjured, this is certainly better than not being able to clear the malfunction at all because you needed to locate a hook knife, get it in your hand, and try to cut the offending line..

The middle ground would be to use line release toggles. I've heard stories of jumpers having lineovers on slider up objects with relatively conservative delays and still not having much time to clear the malfunction.

On most slider down jumps (jumps that will require a slider down/off configuration, not taller objects where you elect to go slider down/off with a shorter delay), you will not have time to use line release toggles or a hook knife. The line release mod is your only realistic option for clearing a linover.

Are lineovers common on properly configured BASE gear? No. Our sport is still young enough that you can still find a way to kill yourself that nobody has managed to do yet. Just because there aren't documented linovers on jumps with a tailgate doesn't mean it won't happen to you on your very next jump.

This is all just my opinion and I'm curious what others think.

One thing I do like is that jumpers are still questioning why we're doing things. This will lead to developments in gear and also weeding out outdated practices.

[Zennie 0]

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How many documented linovers have occured while the jumper was using a properly configured tailgate? I am unaware of any.

I've seen an awful lot of lineovers on the Bridge Day videos that were cleared via the line mod. I have a hard time believing that all of those were slider-down jumps where no tailgate was used. I can't prove it, just saying the odds seem very slim to me.

I've stopped using line-release toggles on slider up jumps & now use Vertigo's big-grab Syko toggles. I have video on at least two jumps where you can see the line release tab partially deployed right after opening when I reach for the toggles. I KNOW that wasn't sloppy packing... I was very anal about making sure the tabs were seated properly.

My suspicion is that somehow during the extraction sequence the tabs were catching on something and getting pulled down.

- Z
"Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon

[base428 1]

My thoughts:

1) There have been SEVERAL documented cases of line-overs with tailgates. They've even been discussed here and at over at Blinc.

2) Proper method for dealing with a line-over is to ditch the offending toggle, but retain the other. Do not discard, as you'll have a REALLY unstable canopy then. Flare with one toggle and one riser.

Have a nice day!

(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

[Faber 0]

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2) Proper method for dealing with a line-over is to ditch the offending toggle, but retain the other. Do not discard, as you'll have a REALLY unstable canopy then. Flare with one toggle and one riser.

i would keep the toogle in my hand but still flare on the risers in both sides(ofcourse i would have released the brake).cant see that that could give you such a unstabel canopy...

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[TomAiello 26]

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2) Proper method for dealing with a line-over is to ditch the offending toggle, but retain the other. Do not discard, as you'll have a REALLY unstable canopy then. Flare with one toggle and one riser.

i would keep the toogle in my hand but still flare on the risers in both sides(ofcourse i would have released the brake).cant see that that could give you such a unstabel canopy...

You really have to practice the "one riser one toggle" flare, if you want to do it effectively. I would certainly _not_ try an emergency landing that way if you haven't practiced it.

I'm partial to the method that Faber described. That's worked for me.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[leroydb 0]

i didnt have much trouble when i threw the other toggle away. flairing with both rears was touchy but not difficult. also it was a no wind day. plus i did skydive it earlier that day, so maybe that played into it?

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[JesseP 0]

1) There have been SEVERAL documented cases of line-overs with tailgates. They've even been discussed here and at over at Blinc.

Hi Jason, I did a search and couldn't find anything here relating to a slider down line over with a tail gate used correctly. If you have the time and know the information I'd be interested to hear about these occurrences. Thanks.

[base428 1]

I know tailgate lineovers have been discussed, but you'll have to find the posts on your own.

As for ditching both toggles, this was the recommended method of the IPBC in the late 90's/early 2000's and was supported by most everyone at the competitions (including me). Do whatever works best for YOU, but when you flare both risers too high and land on your back, feel free to send me your xrays and I'll post them on my xray website. Cya.

(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

[Faber 0]

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when you flare both risers too high and land on your back, feel free to send me your xrays and I'll post them on my xray website.

ehm.. i did my part is it ok that i dont sumit more picsi think i took my hit

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[leroydb 0]

SO I played with my toggles and had the following um... well read on...

only thing i found is that if when the rig is being packed and the risers are flat, that if i pull straight up on the brake line, the top of the toggle can slip out of the keeper.

in my "newby base idea zone(my head)" I figure that if i had a "brake" line over, or the brake line snagged something it might pull top of the toggle out of the keeper?

maybe I had a line over and it cleared itself... crazy, yes, unlikely more so, but possible

(note: i am pretty positive the brake line didnt catch the object, else I probally would have had a spinner/ object strike)

UPDATE: Thanks to hookit! muchas gracias!

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[TomAiello 26]

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..when the rig is being packed and the risers are flat, that if i pull straight up on the brake line, the top of the toggle can slip out of the keeper.

I don't understand. Can you explain how this happens?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com