PhreeZone 20 #1 January 18, 2004 Is it legal to repack a rig that will have the maintence date of the unit come due before the 120 day repack cycle is over? With the time to send Cypres units in set at -/+ 3 months does that mean its ok to repack a unit and just send it in after the repack cycle is complete or not? I've got a unit thats got a date of May 2000 on it so its due for its 4 year in May. The rig needs to be repacked before the end of this month, but Airtec/SSK won't accept the unit until next month at the soonest. Is it acceptible to repack the rig and when its cycle is up in early June to send it in then?Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jedeisurf 0 #2 January 18, 2004 I myself, will not pack a rig like that, what I do is offer a reseal and installation free of charge. David Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markbaur 0 #3 January 18, 2004 Yes, it's legal. +3 months means a unit due in May can be used through August. Remember that batteries are separate issue: no + leeway when they're due. If the batteries will expire in less than 120 days, an entry on the packing card noting when the batteries (and the pack job) expire will do the trick. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #4 January 18, 2004 QuoteQuoteYes, it's legal. +3 months means a unit due in May can be used through August. I tend to agree, but not soo sure of the battery issue. I was under the impression that there is some leeway with the dates on them too.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NightJumper 0 #5 January 18, 2004 There is no leeway on the battery, read this . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites linestretch 0 #6 January 19, 2004 QuoteFurther, Airtec recommends to replace the battery if the two year period will be up before the next scheduled repack. This avoids the cost of an extra repack to just change the battery. Note that your rigger can change the battery, the CYPRES unit does not have to be sent to Airtec or SSK. recommends........not requiredmy pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #7 January 19, 2004 QuoteFurther, Airtec recommends to replace the battery if the two year period will be up before the next scheduled repack. This avoids the cost of an extra repack to just change the battery. Note that your rigger can change the battery, the CYPRES unit does not have to be sent to Airtec or SSK. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- recommends........not required Correct. You can re-pack the reserve even if the batteries will expire in less than 120 days. But, the reserve is due for an inspection and re-pack when the batteries expire. I won't pack a reserve if the batteries will come due before the reserve does because I cannot guarantee the owner will not jump the rig once the batteries expire. So there is no leeway, as NightJumper posted. Once the batteries expire, the rig is not legal to jump. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #8 January 19, 2004 What about the legality of expired batteries? For instance, if you packed it and noted the pack card as such, they jumped past that date and was hurt/killed. Do you think the rigger could still be held responible in court? (assuming it was something like a cypress malfunction).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sundevil777 102 #9 January 19, 2004 A clearly obvious note specifically saying that the rig is actually only 'good' till date XX/XX because of reason XX should be good enough, right?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites linestretch 0 #10 January 19, 2004 I don't see how you could say "there is no leeway". It says nothing cut and dry that once the batteries are past the date, that the rig must be grounded, and taken care of. I'm not advocating that this is what I do, but it is a good debate. We stock cypres batteries here, and basically change them every repack due to the rigs generally having almost 500 jumps in a cycle. But, the batteries we have are sitting on a shelf, and are well into the 2 years from DOM. I know that this is a little different, but just a thought. It says the 2 years is from last battery change. What if the batteries were on the shelf for a year? Where does this fit in? Sorta a grey area.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #11 January 19, 2004 QuoteI don't see how you could say "there is no leeway". It says nothing cut and dry that once the batteries are past the date, that the rig must be grounded, and taken care of. I'm not advocating that this is what I do, but it is a good debate. We stock cypres batteries here, and basically change them every repack due to the rigs generally having almost 500 jumps in a cycle. But, the batteries we have are sitting on a shelf, and are well into the 2 years from DOM. I know that this is a little different, but just a thought. It says the 2 years is from last battery change. What if the batteries were on the shelf for a year? Where does this fit in? Sorta a grey area. It is not from DOM for the batteries but from when they are installed. Read User's Guide, page 7. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #12 January 19, 2004 QuoteI don't see how you could say "there is no leeway" From FAR Part 105: "(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device." “The 2-year maximum does[/I] period does not start until the battery is installed in the Cypres.” “The Cypres1 battery assembly must be replaced every 2 years, after 500 jumps, or when the low battery error code (8998 or 8999) is displayed, -[I]whichever occurs first[/I]" Edit: The italics are not mine, this is how it appears on their web-page and news sheet. The batteries are 'good' for 2 years from the date of installation. Past two years the batteries are no longer 'good'. To jump a rig with Cypres1 batteries that have been installed for more than 2 years is a violation of FAR Part 105. QuoteBut, the batteries we have are sitting on a shelf, and are well into the 2 years from DOM. It is not 2 years from DOM, it is 2 years from installation. Quote What if the batteries were on the shelf for a year? Where does this fit in? Sorta a grey area. "When stored as instructed the batteries have a long shelf life; the two year period does not start until they are installed." “CYPRES-1 batteries have a long shelf life (approximately 3 years), as long as they are stored in a cool, dry location (below 68°F).” Airtec is very clear on the requirements for replacing Cypres batteries. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #13 January 19, 2004 QuoteWhat about the legality of expired batteries? For instance, if you packed it and noted the pack card as such, they jumped past that date and was hurt/killed. Do you think the rigger could still be held responible in court? (assuming it was something like a cypress malfunction). My personal decision is to not re-pack a rig with Cypres batteries that will come due before the reserve does. A note on the card would probably relieve the rigger from any legal liability. Obviously informing the owner of the rig that the reserve will be due when the batteries are due would be the prudent thing to do also. I don’t think DZ’s would check or notice the note on the card and some jumpers would continue to jump the rig with out of date batteries if they can get away with it. I would rather just avoid the entire situation and change the batteries. Take away temptation. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites linestretch 0 #14 January 19, 2004 still think it's a grey area. Not too mention a scam on how much you are paying for batteries. no point in quoting this and trying to be-little. This is how I see it, and I'm entitled to that.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #15 January 19, 2004 It's not a scam. Airtec is concerned about the reserve being damaged by battery acid/leak. The 2-year limit is based on tests showing that after 2 years from installation the batteries may leak and damage the reserve. Apparently this is not the case w/ the cypres-2. It's cheaper to replace the batteries than both the batteries/ Reserve and potentially damage to the container.Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Hooknswoop 19 #16 January 19, 2004 It was no my intention to be-little. Airtec says the batteries must be replaced after 2 years from date of installation. The FAR's say that the AAD, if installed, must be maintained according to the manufacturer's instructions. I think this eliminates any grey area. If the batteries come due before the reserve does, the rig is no longer legal to jump because at that point, the AAD has not been maintained according to the manufacturer's specs. Where do you see a grey area, where am I wrong? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #17 January 19, 2004 Canadians are not as paranoid about law suits as Americans. If Cypres batteries will expire before the end of a repack cycle, I try to sell them a new set of batteries. If they don't want to buy batteries, I tell them how much extra it will cost them to replace batteries and reclose the reserve, yada, yada. I note the replacement date on the work order, then get on with my next project. I also tell them that all promises are off, when the batteries come due, etc. Then I put the onus on them to be adults who are responsible for their own lives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites linestretch 0 #18 January 19, 2004 I like the canadian point of view aye.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masher 1 #19 January 20, 2004 Another reason why I like Australia's six month repack cycle. Battery changes always coincide with a repack.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #20 January 20, 2004 No they dont. A battery can expire any month. If you go 8 months before a repack you are completly out of sync with the battery cycle.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #21 January 20, 2004 QuoteBattery changes always coincide with a repack. There are three conditions that mandate a change of Cypres 1's battery pack. 1) The battery pack has been installed for 24 months. 2) The Cypres unit has been used for 500 jumps 3) The Cypres unit determins the battery level is too low and aborts the power up procedure. I can see several ways that the repack date and the battery change will not coincide.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skymedic 0 #22 January 20, 2004 Quote2) The Cypres unit has been used for 500 jumps 500 cycles is what SSK said to me....so if you ride the plane up...and ride the plane down...that's a cycle.... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #23 January 20, 2004 You're right. Why someone would want to is another story.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. 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NightJumper 0 #5 January 18, 2004 There is no leeway on the battery, read this . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #6 January 19, 2004 QuoteFurther, Airtec recommends to replace the battery if the two year period will be up before the next scheduled repack. This avoids the cost of an extra repack to just change the battery. Note that your rigger can change the battery, the CYPRES unit does not have to be sent to Airtec or SSK. recommends........not requiredmy pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #7 January 19, 2004 QuoteFurther, Airtec recommends to replace the battery if the two year period will be up before the next scheduled repack. This avoids the cost of an extra repack to just change the battery. Note that your rigger can change the battery, the CYPRES unit does not have to be sent to Airtec or SSK. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- recommends........not required Correct. You can re-pack the reserve even if the batteries will expire in less than 120 days. But, the reserve is due for an inspection and re-pack when the batteries expire. I won't pack a reserve if the batteries will come due before the reserve does because I cannot guarantee the owner will not jump the rig once the batteries expire. So there is no leeway, as NightJumper posted. Once the batteries expire, the rig is not legal to jump. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #8 January 19, 2004 What about the legality of expired batteries? For instance, if you packed it and noted the pack card as such, they jumped past that date and was hurt/killed. Do you think the rigger could still be held responible in court? (assuming it was something like a cypress malfunction).--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 102 #9 January 19, 2004 A clearly obvious note specifically saying that the rig is actually only 'good' till date XX/XX because of reason XX should be good enough, right?People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #10 January 19, 2004 I don't see how you could say "there is no leeway". It says nothing cut and dry that once the batteries are past the date, that the rig must be grounded, and taken care of. I'm not advocating that this is what I do, but it is a good debate. We stock cypres batteries here, and basically change them every repack due to the rigs generally having almost 500 jumps in a cycle. But, the batteries we have are sitting on a shelf, and are well into the 2 years from DOM. I know that this is a little different, but just a thought. It says the 2 years is from last battery change. What if the batteries were on the shelf for a year? Where does this fit in? Sorta a grey area.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #11 January 19, 2004 QuoteI don't see how you could say "there is no leeway". It says nothing cut and dry that once the batteries are past the date, that the rig must be grounded, and taken care of. I'm not advocating that this is what I do, but it is a good debate. We stock cypres batteries here, and basically change them every repack due to the rigs generally having almost 500 jumps in a cycle. But, the batteries we have are sitting on a shelf, and are well into the 2 years from DOM. I know that this is a little different, but just a thought. It says the 2 years is from last battery change. What if the batteries were on the shelf for a year? Where does this fit in? Sorta a grey area. It is not from DOM for the batteries but from when they are installed. Read User's Guide, page 7. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #12 January 19, 2004 QuoteI don't see how you could say "there is no leeway" From FAR Part 105: "(c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device." “The 2-year maximum does[/I] period does not start until the battery is installed in the Cypres.” “The Cypres1 battery assembly must be replaced every 2 years, after 500 jumps, or when the low battery error code (8998 or 8999) is displayed, -[I]whichever occurs first[/I]" Edit: The italics are not mine, this is how it appears on their web-page and news sheet. The batteries are 'good' for 2 years from the date of installation. Past two years the batteries are no longer 'good'. To jump a rig with Cypres1 batteries that have been installed for more than 2 years is a violation of FAR Part 105. QuoteBut, the batteries we have are sitting on a shelf, and are well into the 2 years from DOM. It is not 2 years from DOM, it is 2 years from installation. Quote What if the batteries were on the shelf for a year? Where does this fit in? Sorta a grey area. "When stored as instructed the batteries have a long shelf life; the two year period does not start until they are installed." “CYPRES-1 batteries have a long shelf life (approximately 3 years), as long as they are stored in a cool, dry location (below 68°F).” Airtec is very clear on the requirements for replacing Cypres batteries. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #13 January 19, 2004 QuoteWhat about the legality of expired batteries? For instance, if you packed it and noted the pack card as such, they jumped past that date and was hurt/killed. Do you think the rigger could still be held responible in court? (assuming it was something like a cypress malfunction). My personal decision is to not re-pack a rig with Cypres batteries that will come due before the reserve does. A note on the card would probably relieve the rigger from any legal liability. Obviously informing the owner of the rig that the reserve will be due when the batteries are due would be the prudent thing to do also. I don’t think DZ’s would check or notice the note on the card and some jumpers would continue to jump the rig with out of date batteries if they can get away with it. I would rather just avoid the entire situation and change the batteries. Take away temptation. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #14 January 19, 2004 still think it's a grey area. Not too mention a scam on how much you are paying for batteries. no point in quoting this and trying to be-little. This is how I see it, and I'm entitled to that.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #15 January 19, 2004 It's not a scam. Airtec is concerned about the reserve being damaged by battery acid/leak. The 2-year limit is based on tests showing that after 2 years from installation the batteries may leak and damage the reserve. Apparently this is not the case w/ the cypres-2. It's cheaper to replace the batteries than both the batteries/ Reserve and potentially damage to the container.Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #16 January 19, 2004 It was no my intention to be-little. Airtec says the batteries must be replaced after 2 years from date of installation. The FAR's say that the AAD, if installed, must be maintained according to the manufacturer's instructions. I think this eliminates any grey area. If the batteries come due before the reserve does, the rig is no longer legal to jump because at that point, the AAD has not been maintained according to the manufacturer's specs. Where do you see a grey area, where am I wrong? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #17 January 19, 2004 Canadians are not as paranoid about law suits as Americans. If Cypres batteries will expire before the end of a repack cycle, I try to sell them a new set of batteries. If they don't want to buy batteries, I tell them how much extra it will cost them to replace batteries and reclose the reserve, yada, yada. I note the replacement date on the work order, then get on with my next project. I also tell them that all promises are off, when the batteries come due, etc. Then I put the onus on them to be adults who are responsible for their own lives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #18 January 19, 2004 I like the canadian point of view aye.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masher 1 #19 January 20, 2004 Another reason why I like Australia's six month repack cycle. Battery changes always coincide with a repack.-- Arching is overrated - Marlies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #20 January 20, 2004 No they dont. A battery can expire any month. If you go 8 months before a repack you are completly out of sync with the battery cycle.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #21 January 20, 2004 QuoteBattery changes always coincide with a repack. There are three conditions that mandate a change of Cypres 1's battery pack. 1) The battery pack has been installed for 24 months. 2) The Cypres unit has been used for 500 jumps 3) The Cypres unit determins the battery level is too low and aborts the power up procedure. I can see several ways that the repack date and the battery change will not coincide.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skymedic 0 #22 January 20, 2004 Quote2) The Cypres unit has been used for 500 jumps 500 cycles is what SSK said to me....so if you ride the plane up...and ride the plane down...that's a cycle.... Marc otherwise known as Mr.Fallinwoman.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #23 January 20, 2004 You're right. Why someone would want to is another story.....---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
