unclecharlie109 0 #1 September 15, 2004 Together with several other wingsuit BASE jumpers I have written some guidelines for BASE jumpers thinking about starting wingsuit BASE. The pdf file can be dowloaded from - you need to do a right click -> "save target as": http://members.fortunecity.com/unclecharlie/wsbase1.pdf Note the file requires Adobe Acrobat 6 or later. You can download Adobe Acrobat from: http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2.html If you have any constructive comments please email, PM or post. I hope this document generates some discussion. Long flights, J Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #2 September 15, 2004 I can't seem to get it... Quotehttp://members.fortunecity.com/unclecharlie/wsbase1.pdf QuoteThis file type is not allowed on our servers. In order for us to continue to provide our members with the first-class service they expect, we no longer allow certain types of media files to be stored on our servers. These include .mpeg and .avi types. Why can't I upload my MPEGs and AVI files?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #3 September 15, 2004 Hmmm. Third time was the charm. The second time I clicked the link I got this: QuoteWe're sorry, but we can't supply the file you requested. In order for us to continue to provide our members with the first-class service they expect, we don't allow people to link files from sites hosted with other providers. Got it now, though.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pBASEtobe 0 #4 September 15, 2004 QuoteI can't seem to get it... Good, so it's not just me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pBASEtobe 0 #5 September 15, 2004 QuoteHmmm. Third time was the charm. Got it now, though. Oh...me too! Strange. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leroydb 0 #6 September 15, 2004 seems it is blockedLeroy ..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #7 September 15, 2004 I have successfully downloaded the .pdf, so if anyone wants it and can't get it off the link, send me an email and I'll forward it (it's too large to attach to DZ.com postings).-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #8 September 15, 2004 Tom, talk to Sangiro about adding it to the Archives here then just post a link to it.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ManBird 0 #9 September 15, 2004 Also mirrored here."¯"`-._.-¯) ManBird (¯-._.-´"¯" Click Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanuckInUSA 0 #10 September 15, 2004 Thanks for the info Try not to worry about the things you have no control over Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toni 0 #11 September 16, 2004 Why do you recommend just 50 jumps? One having just 50 jumps doesn't know anything about base yet, neither I think the sub-terminal tracking skills are good... I'd rather see that around 200-300s are better (as the same applies for skydivers)... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vesatoro 0 #12 September 16, 2004 QuoteWhy do you recommend just 50 jumps? One having just 50 jumps doesn't know anything about base yet, neither I think the sub-terminal tracking skills are good... I'd rather see that around 200-300s are better (as the same applies for skydivers)... I would suggest that the overall number of base jumps is not the qualifying factor. I cannot imagine one can achieve the needed skills even with 200-300 slider down jumps. 50 terminal jumps is in my counts much more. Subterminal tracking skills are good to have, as then you have learned to exit in a "restricted" track body position compared to normal "relaxed" exit and then starting to track as the airspeed increases. I would emphasize ones abilities as whole in the numbers and quality of base-jumps and ws-skydives, with some mental stress and "new thing" handling abilities added in. But what do I know. Vesa "Fear is the path to the Dark side" (Master Yoda) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
maretus 0 #13 September 16, 2004 Quote One having just 50 jumps doesn't know anything about base yet, neither I think the sub-terminal tracking skills are good... I'd rather see that around 200-300s are better (as the same applies for skydivers)... Vesa pretty much summed it up but I'd like to add my thoughts on this subject. From my point of view 50 BASE jumps doesn't tell very much about ones abilities to make successfull ws BASE jumps, neither does 200-300 jumps. Which one do you consider better equipped to make a ws BASE jump, one jumper with 200 slider downs or jumper with 50 terminal jumps for example ? From my point of view, it's not the number of jumps you have, it's the quality of jumps you've made and the skills you've learnt during those jumps. Also taking up ws BASE (or any other "special" field of BASE) requires lots of background work, training and finding information, making the skydives, preparing yourself for the discipline of your choice. The way I see it it's all about getting ready, building up the necessary skills and feeling confident with your stuff. And that requires much more than just a certain amount of jumps. Just my thoughts... Edited to add: Great document though, very good points and that will be a must to read to anyone who is considering taking up wingsuit BASEjumping.http://www.ufufreefly.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #14 September 16, 2004 Quote...200 slider downs or jumper with 50 terminal jumps for example ? The jumper with 200 slider down jumps is probably more capable of recovering stability (in or out of WS) after a bad launch. Unstable exit and inability to recover stability has resulted in wingsuit fatality in the past. I have seen many people who think that many wingsuit skydives will make for safe wingsuit BASE. Unfortunately, this is only one of the two major inputs.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toni 0 #15 September 16, 2004 Thanks Tom. I think all of us agree about the jump numbers, I did not want a enter a "what counts more for XY than something else..." discussion. So one might ask why you recommend any numbers if they can be interpreted sooo vaste? (I just wanted to say that 50 jumps in total on whatever configuration is nothing...) Another question: Is anyone at 50 jumps confident about his exit skills? As Vesa: "But what do I know ;-)" ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vesatoro 0 #16 September 16, 2004 Quote The jumper with 200 slider down jumps is probably more capable of recovering stability (in or out of WS) after a bad launch. Unstable exit and inability to recover stability has resulted in wingsuit fatality in the past. Well, if I had to choose, I'd still take those 50 terminals rather than 200 slider ups. But that's just me. With terminal jumps one should have accustomized with the transitional speeds, gathering experience about altitude during a "long" jump, keeping a good heading during an efficient track. And in my opinion at 50 jumps one shoud have no question about exit confidence. If one has, he/she really is in a wrong place. Of course it's good to have some recommendations. But the problem is that people ussually follow them if it suits them. Especially in a sport like this where there is no one to say NO. If the recommendation is too low, we know what happens. If it's way high, people will do their own things. But the problem stays. How do we define the number... Don't know nothing, still have opinions. Yours may differ. Vesa "Fear is the path to the Dark side" (Master Yoda) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBCmac 0 #17 September 16, 2004 The document does not say that 50 jumps is all you need. It says “With minimum 50 jumps (But more are strongly recommended)”. And it clearly states other skills you should have in addition or acquired within the jumps that you have. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- --Excerpt from article: --------------------------------------------------------------------------- An intermediate BASE jumper: - With minimum 50 BASE jumps (but more jumps are strongly recommended!) - Cool under pressure, very comfortable in the BASE environment - Always performing solid exits, also when exiting with arms by your side - Have good sub & terminal tracking skills - Have excellent canopy flying skills and landing accuracy - Have consistent record of stable deployments and on-heading openings An intermediate wingsuit skydiver: - With minimum 50 wingsuit skydives (but more jumps are strongly recommended!) - Who wears a wingsuit as if it were pyjamas, not feeling physically restricted by the fabric - Always able to find the PC quickly and cleanly, with good on heading openings - Well practiced at recovering from instability - Able to unzip arm wings instantly after deployment - like 2nd nature - Familiar using arm and leg cutaways in freefall and under canopy immediately after opening - Able to fly the suit comfortably without “potato chipping” achieving reasonable fall rate and forward speed - Ideally have performed some wingsuit balloon jumps to simulate the exit & sub terminal flight - See Appendix B for specific flight drills to practice whilst jumping the wingsuit from the plane. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I was preparing to get into Wing Suit BASE, I had nothing like this to fall back on. It would have been invaluable to my venture into Wing Suit Base. In fact, when I was getting into BASE Wing Suit flying, I posted several questions that only the authors of this document took the time to answer at the time that I posted them. They further confirmed some of my discoveries with BASE Wing Suit flying by writing this document. The funny thing is that if you search on Blinc or skydive.com on my username, you’ll still see questions that are unanswered that I posted last year. Again, this article answered those unanswered questions / confirmed my own discoveries. So with all that said, I have to ask, why do we immediately attack someone’s effort to introduce an invaluable baseline document by fixating on things within it. And in this case, what was being fixated on wasn’t even accurate because it wasn’t quoted in its entirety. But yet, so few ever answered my newbie questions that have been posted since last year. Sometimes we as a BASE community take things way to literal. This document, as was clearly stated in the introduction of this document, was posted simply as an “initial information source” and not as an “instruction manual”… SBCmac (Michael) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #18 September 16, 2004 Quote[...I'd still take those 50 terminals rather than 200 slider ups. I don't know which I'd take. Fortunately, I didn't have to make that choice when I made my first WS flights. Seriously, I'd rather that everyone have _both_. If all 200 BASE jumps were terminal BASE jumps (and they had 200 WS flights from a plane, too), they'd have much lower chance of accident. Heck, if we all had 1000 terminal BASE jumps and 1000 airplane wingsuit flights, we'd probably have very few accidents on first BASE flights. But we both know what the chance of that happening is.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #19 September 16, 2004 Quote...why do we immediately attack someone’s effort to introduce an invaluable baseline document... I hadn't read any of this discussion as attacks. UncleCharlie did ask for discussion, and I think this thread has some pretty healthy discussion. For what it's worth, I expect this document to save lives in our sport--and not just a few of them.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBCmac 0 #20 September 16, 2004 Again... Too literal... You took one word out of my entire post and fixated on it and not the entire message… How about "poke at someone’s effort" instead of "attack"... And I wasn't just talking about just this post. For the most part, the main reason I stopped going to the Blinc site was because most of the posts ended up with people picking apart each others replies instead of discussing the topic at hand. My point of my post was that the discussion was based on something that the article never stated… It never stated that someone should huck off a cliff with 50 BASE jumps and 50 ws skydives… Again the first opening discussion was a question of why the author stated that someone only needs 50 BASE jumps in order to WS BASE… SBCmac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #21 September 16, 2004 Apologies. I wasn't trying to fixate. I read your entire post, and agreed with all of it except that bit. So I responded to that bit. I wasn't trying to start an argument.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SBCmac 0 #22 September 16, 2004 My bad, I should have chosen better words, less aggressive ones, to state my opinion. My apologize extended to my BASE brother SBCmac Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #23 September 16, 2004 "Where no information exists any is welcome." I don't know who said that, maybe it was me? Very well done, I thought, and it gave me the shivers . . . Nick BASE 194 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bennii 0 #24 September 16, 2004 I think doing your first BASE ws is simular to do your first BASE so i think it is a good idea to have some kind of instructer by your side like my good frind was this summer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vesatoro 0 #25 September 17, 2004 My apologies, if someone feels attacked. I also think the purpose was to discuss one aspect of those recommendations, and why not also the other aspects. As discussion can't be a bad thing? As I stated in a wingsuit forum: "A very good piece of advice indeed." and still think so. I wish I also had this document in hand when I made my decision. Vesa "Fear is the path to the Dark side" (Master Yoda) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
