lynxie 0 #1 October 26, 2004 I want to buy toggles I can release in case of a slider up line over, but I don't know which brand to choose. What kind of different release toggles are there to choose between? Pros and cons? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #2 October 26, 2004 The best I've seen are the WLO ("What Line Over?") toggles from Vertigo. I assume that they are still offered by Apex, now. The real issue on the ones I've seen is 1 handed operation v. 2 handed operation. The Gravity Sports SuperToggles have a 2 handed operation. You must release the brake, pulling the toggle off the riser, with one hand, and pull the "release" tab with the other. This will ostensibly make it harder to accidentally fire the release, and also allows the toggle to use a cloth stub (not a pin). In general, I far prefer cloth stubs to pins on my toggles. The Vertigo WLO has a 1 handed operation. You pull just the tab, and it both fires the release and clears the brake setting. This means that the toggle stays on the riser. Overall, I personally prefer the 1 handed operation--and the WLO toggle.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pbla4024 0 #3 October 27, 2004 And what about HP Big Grabs (slider up line-over mod) by Morpheus? Anybody knows them? Fido Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ronald 0 #4 October 27, 2004 I have seen the WLO toggles from Morpheus Technologies. (I don't remember the name of their type). They for sure are the best available at present. Ronald Overdijk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #5 October 27, 2004 QuoteAnd what about HP Big Grabs (slider up line-over mod) by Morpheus? Anybody knows them? I don't know them specifically. I do know Morpheus gear, and it's very good, so I'd imagine their line release toggles would be quite good as well.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BASE813 0 #6 October 27, 2004 I have seen them, but not used them, and like the design of them................. but before getting any type of "WLO" toggles, I would speak to the manufacturers about them............. I was going to get some LRT / WLO / blah blah toggles, and after speaking to some people, I decided not to get them.................... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #7 October 27, 2004 QuoteI have seen them, but not used them, and like the design of them................. Do you know if they are a 1 or 2 handed operation? And if they use a pin or a cloth stub through the brake setting? Thanks for any info you can share.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BASE813 0 #8 October 27, 2004 they use a pin to hold the toggle onto the control line, with what I see as a quick one hand release, with a small metal loop to pull to release the control line, and the normal "big grab toggle" stub through the break setting loop. (not directed at Tom:) As I have said before, I would seriously speak to the manufacturers about having this sort of toggle......................... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #9 October 27, 2004 Certainly for beginners, I definitely agree with you that a line release toggle is not worth the extra complexity. Quotethey use a pin to hold the toggle onto the control line, with what I see as a quick one hand release, with a small metal loop to pull to release the control line, and the normal "big grab toggle" stub through the break setting loop. Does that mean you have to pop the brakes before releasing the line? Or does the release free both the line end (from the toggle) and the brake setting (from the stub)? QuoteAs I have said before, I would seriously speak to the manufacturers about having this sort of toggle. Can you share any of your thoughts on them, and what factors made you decide against using them?-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outrager 6 #10 October 27, 2004 QuoteCan you share any of your thoughts on them, and what factors made you decide against using them? I am a big fan of release toggles. However i do recognize that they are unlikely to help unless you pull relatively high. This is mostly due to a pilot reaction time: equipment would work just fine, but you cannot recognize a problem and release the line quick enough on a typical single-digit canopy ride Line twists will also negate WLO effect. That said, i have WLO on all of my rigs. It is rather stupid not to use them on slider-up jumps if you are conservative enough to pull above 300' While WLO benefits and limitations are pretty clear, the only negative side is their extra complexity. They could still be refined a bit, however a current version is not far from perfect. What turns most people off is the need to use Vertigo risers that use a snap. People either love it or hate it. I personally like it. Assuming an equally efficient version comes out for those snapless people, everybody shall be happy bsbd! Yuri. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #11 October 27, 2004 QuoteWhat turns most people off is the need to use Vertigo risers that use a snap. The thing I don't like is the pin. I prefer cloth stubs on the toggle, because (a) they've been kinder to my lines over time, and (b) I've seen pin toggles have premature releases (i.e. toggle fires during opening) 4 times, but I've never seen it happen with a cloth stub.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outrager 6 #12 October 27, 2004 QuoteQuoteThe thing I don't like is the pin. I prefer cloth stubs on the toggle, because (a) they've been kinder to my lines over time, and (b) I've seen pin toggles have premature releases (i.e. toggle fires during opening) 4 times, but I've never seen it happen with a cloth stub. Old Vertigo pins were harsh on the lines - i had to sandpaper the ends, that fixed the problem. The new long ones on WLO toggles are very smooth and rounded. Regarding premature releases: did you observe it on Vertigo setup or other pin toggles ? I feel it is virtually impossible to have a premature release on a properly set Vertigo riser - just like on any BASE riser for that matter. Premature releases i have seen so far were on old sub-stadard risers/toggles (zoo toggles come to mind) or improperly set toggles. A release toggle with a cloth stub would have to be two-step: release the line and then pull the toggle to release the brake setting, possibly still in a single one-handed move? bsbd! Yuri. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #13 October 27, 2004 QuoteRegarding premature releases: did you observe it on Vertigo setup or other pin toggles ? Once Vertigo toggles, three times Gravity Sports toggles. I did not see the Vertigo toggle packed, so I can't vouch for how it was set.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tfelber 0 #14 October 27, 2004 In watching the C and C2 videos I noticed some of the risers had the brakeline going through a ring similar to Skydiving risers. There were others that were free from the risers. When I first saw this post, that's what I thought it was about, but after reviewing the WLO Vertigo toggles it appears that mod releases the brakeline from the toggle completely. So now I have some questions: 1. What and why the difference between the brake line free from the riser or not? 2. Are release toggles just a non-destructive way to cut the offending brakeline away? 3. Is the next step to land using rear risers? 4. Tom, you recommend newbies not use release toggles, how do you recommend dealing with a lineover? 5. I have never experienced a lineover and always assumed they were generally due to a line dump. Is this correct? Are there other ways to induce a lineover? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Treejumps 0 #15 October 27, 2004 *** "release toggle with a cloth stub would have to be two-step" Actually, this is not true. I am working on a design that will be one handed and will work with either toggle set up. There is also somethng else that this system will incorporate that I will not discuss now becasue, well, I want to build it first. I think that it will add additional safety to slider up jumping. I should have a prototype to jump soon and I have a willing test jumper. Cya. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Faber 0 #16 October 27, 2004 QuoteI noticed some of the risers had the brakeline going through a ring similar to Skydiving risers. There were others that were free from the risers i didnt see the vid yet but i sopouse that what you saw were the difference between slider up and off jumps. slider off the lines are free of the ring QuoteTom, you recommend newbies not use release toggles, how do you recommend dealing with a lineover? look at his web for a vid called lineover or so,you will see how he nicely clears that oneoh and dont forget to look at his flare,if i just had did so as i had a blown toogle Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #17 October 27, 2004 Quote1. What and why the difference between the brake line free from the riser or not? When jumping slider down (or off), you should route the control lines outside the grommets (if slider down) and the keeper rings. When slider up, you must route the control lines through the slider grommets (in order to drive the slider during deployment) and the keeper rings (in order to prevent a blown toggle from entangling the slider and ruining the rest of your life). Some jumpers have lately begun routing the lines through the rings on slider down jumps. I believe this is bad practice, as I have seen a slider down, tailgated line over. Quote2. Are release toggles just a non-destructive way to cut the offending brakeline away? Essentially, yes. Quote3. Is the next step to land using rear risers? Yes. But be sure you practice this before you need it in an emergency. I know many jumpers who have never practiced rear riser landings. Quote4. Tom, you recommend newbies not use release toggles, how do you recommend dealing with a lineover? Don't have one? In all seriousness, I'd carry a hook knife (I always do). In my opinion, the potential for a line over is small enough that a beginner shouldn't add the extra complexity to the system. Quote5. I have never experienced a lineover and always assumed they were generally due to a line dump. Is this correct? Are there other ways to induce a lineover? I'm not sure that anyone really knows what causes line overs. Some can be explained, but some cannot. Slider down, an untailgated canopy will have a much greater tendency to line over, and I think we understand why that is to a fair degree, but speculation as to the causes of line overs in general on tailgated and slider up canopies is probably beyond the scope of this thread.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #18 October 27, 2004 Quote I should have a prototype to jump soon and I have a willing test jumper. Two willing test jumpers if you send me a set. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lee846 0 #19 November 11, 2004 I made a stupid mistake May be later i'll attach some pics of it. I made 50+ slider-off jumps with WLO risers-toggles. The pins were damaged because of the hard slider-off opening. Now they are slightly curved and have some scratches Scratched pins are cutting my slider-down brakes. The only way to fix it is to replace the lower control lines ans buy another pair of toggles... and to buy regular risers for slider-off jumps. Don't be as stupid as i was. Between two evils always pick theone never tried Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 1 #20 November 12, 2004 QuoteQuote I should have a prototype to jump soon and I have a willing test jumper. Two willing test jumpers if you send me a set. Make that 3 My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sregina 0 #21 November 12, 2004 "I should have a prototype to jump soon and I have a willing test jumper." Can I also get in on some of that action?? You know where to find me! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Treejumps 0 #22 November 12, 2004 I thought that you were dead. Glad to see you walking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites 0
TomAiello 26 #13 October 27, 2004 QuoteRegarding premature releases: did you observe it on Vertigo setup or other pin toggles ? Once Vertigo toggles, three times Gravity Sports toggles. I did not see the Vertigo toggle packed, so I can't vouch for how it was set.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tfelber 0 #14 October 27, 2004 In watching the C and C2 videos I noticed some of the risers had the brakeline going through a ring similar to Skydiving risers. There were others that were free from the risers. When I first saw this post, that's what I thought it was about, but after reviewing the WLO Vertigo toggles it appears that mod releases the brakeline from the toggle completely. So now I have some questions: 1. What and why the difference between the brake line free from the riser or not? 2. Are release toggles just a non-destructive way to cut the offending brakeline away? 3. Is the next step to land using rear risers? 4. Tom, you recommend newbies not use release toggles, how do you recommend dealing with a lineover? 5. I have never experienced a lineover and always assumed they were generally due to a line dump. Is this correct? Are there other ways to induce a lineover? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #15 October 27, 2004 *** "release toggle with a cloth stub would have to be two-step" Actually, this is not true. I am working on a design that will be one handed and will work with either toggle set up. There is also somethng else that this system will incorporate that I will not discuss now becasue, well, I want to build it first. I think that it will add additional safety to slider up jumping. I should have a prototype to jump soon and I have a willing test jumper. Cya. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #16 October 27, 2004 QuoteI noticed some of the risers had the brakeline going through a ring similar to Skydiving risers. There were others that were free from the risers i didnt see the vid yet but i sopouse that what you saw were the difference between slider up and off jumps. slider off the lines are free of the ring QuoteTom, you recommend newbies not use release toggles, how do you recommend dealing with a lineover? look at his web for a vid called lineover or so,you will see how he nicely clears that oneoh and dont forget to look at his flare,if i just had did so as i had a blown toogle Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #17 October 27, 2004 Quote1. What and why the difference between the brake line free from the riser or not? When jumping slider down (or off), you should route the control lines outside the grommets (if slider down) and the keeper rings. When slider up, you must route the control lines through the slider grommets (in order to drive the slider during deployment) and the keeper rings (in order to prevent a blown toggle from entangling the slider and ruining the rest of your life). Some jumpers have lately begun routing the lines through the rings on slider down jumps. I believe this is bad practice, as I have seen a slider down, tailgated line over. Quote2. Are release toggles just a non-destructive way to cut the offending brakeline away? Essentially, yes. Quote3. Is the next step to land using rear risers? Yes. But be sure you practice this before you need it in an emergency. I know many jumpers who have never practiced rear riser landings. Quote4. Tom, you recommend newbies not use release toggles, how do you recommend dealing with a lineover? Don't have one? In all seriousness, I'd carry a hook knife (I always do). In my opinion, the potential for a line over is small enough that a beginner shouldn't add the extra complexity to the system. Quote5. I have never experienced a lineover and always assumed they were generally due to a line dump. Is this correct? Are there other ways to induce a lineover? I'm not sure that anyone really knows what causes line overs. Some can be explained, but some cannot. Slider down, an untailgated canopy will have a much greater tendency to line over, and I think we understand why that is to a fair degree, but speculation as to the causes of line overs in general on tailgated and slider up canopies is probably beyond the scope of this thread.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #18 October 27, 2004 Quote I should have a prototype to jump soon and I have a willing test jumper. Two willing test jumpers if you send me a set. -- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lee846 0 #19 November 11, 2004 I made a stupid mistake May be later i'll attach some pics of it. I made 50+ slider-off jumps with WLO risers-toggles. The pins were damaged because of the hard slider-off opening. Now they are slightly curved and have some scratches Scratched pins are cutting my slider-down brakes. The only way to fix it is to replace the lower control lines ans buy another pair of toggles... and to buy regular risers for slider-off jumps. Don't be as stupid as i was. Between two evils always pick theone never tried Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #20 November 12, 2004 QuoteQuote I should have a prototype to jump soon and I have a willing test jumper. Two willing test jumpers if you send me a set. Make that 3 My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sregina 0 #21 November 12, 2004 "I should have a prototype to jump soon and I have a willing test jumper." Can I also get in on some of that action?? You know where to find me! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #22 November 12, 2004 I thought that you were dead. Glad to see you walking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
