Infinty Questions

[GravityGirl 0]

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The reason and point is that this is his first rig and that first rig will most likely (99% chance) get biffed in atleast once. Cordura will last longer, look better then parapak.

He was asking about the INSIDE of the leg pads and the backpad. You make a good case for the cordura option for the container in gerneral though.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[craddock 0]

Well I disagree- That's all

I bought a Micron 304 last year that had very few jumps on it and was made out of Cordura. It was a PIA to clean out some grass stains. My parapac rigs have been down in the dirt and grass many times, most likely at a much higher speed than a newbie will do so. They are very easy to clean and keep looking new. It seems to me the darker colors hold color better but I could be wrong. The Wings rep was amazed and how good my rig looked at Rantoul this year and even more so when I told her it was built in 2001. And it has surely been put through more wear and tear than my first rig.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[rjf98 0]

Glad you're going Infinity. What a great company Velocity is, and what a great product. I couldn't have been happier with the service, price, or equipment.

I personally liked mini rings and smaller risers. I have the "normal" (type 8) webbing for the chest strap.

Stainless hardware.... and I'll admit I knew it would not be "as safe", but did it anyway

[hookitt 1]

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The rest should be Cordura.

Gotta just love those "matter of fact" opinions.

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I'm happy you like my matter of fact opinion. Would you prefer if I say "I would recommend cordura for the rest of the rig" ... next time?

I'm experienced with both materials and also a material called Antron.

My parapac rig is still quite functional but looks pretty weathered. My cordura rig has more jumps on it, it's the exact same colors and ofter a washing it looked nearly new. I bought an Infinity so that is the rig I will use as my secondary.

Parapac... in my opinion.. is "OK". but I don't like it much for any thing but the insides of the leg pads and the back pad.

Cheers.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[GravityGirl 0]

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Well I disagree- That's all

I bought a Micron 304 last year that had very few jumps on it and was made out of Cordura. It was a PIA to clean out some grass stains. My parapac rigs have been down in the dirt and grass many times, most likely at a much higher speed than a newbie will do so. They are very easy to clean and keep looking new. It seems to me the darker colors hold color better but I could be wrong. The Wings rep was amazed and how good my rig looked at Rantoul this year and even more so when I told her it was built in 2001. And it has surely been put through more wear and tear than my first rig.

Cool. Now I'll throw in MY opinion. Cordura and Parapak wear DIFFERENTLY. They both age and show some signs of wear. I've had both and have been dissappointed with neither.

One note about parapak. It shows every little crease in the container because of the shiny finish of the fabric. So if you are going to "overstuff" it. It will look terrible. Also a lumpy packjob is more obvious.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[nightjumps 1]

Ryan,

Has the weight-loading on the Super Type 17 and Mini-risers changed? I "believe" it was 225#

Also, do the newer super risers not have the grommet hole punched through it? I forget what they are called.

[rigging65 0]

Generally speaking, the rule of thumb is that if you're over about 225lbs, you "probably should be on Type 8 risers..."

With that said, they can be loaded much more heavily than that...and often are! The "Super" Type-17 risers still have the grommet punched through them (more on that in a minute), but they have layers of reinforcing tape in there as well. This tape, albeit small, gives a pretty significant strength advantage. Like I said, pretty much every type-17 riser made today is built this way.

Something that many people don't realize about risers is that they should be changed out after an extended period of time. I've heard the number "400 jumps" thrown around a bit, and that seems about right to me, based on my experiences. Same as your P/C and bridle and line set. All this gear gets beat up over time, and it needs to be retired and replaced from time to time...all the more so if you're loading it up heavy.

Back to the "grommet hole" thing. There are risers, usually referred to as Reverse Risers, that don't have a grommet in them. They lay "backwards" on your shoulders...that is, with the rings against you as opposed to outboard facing.

They were originally designed as a way to eliminate that grommet hole (which reduced the overall strength of the riser). They did that, creating a stronger, Type-17 riser. Big Problem though: By removing the grommet, you end up placing the loop through a small tab and then pinning it in place with the cable. Since the loop doesn't go up and over the last ring (which creates a pulley), you loose the mechanical advantage that pulley action creates.

Anyone who knows physics will tell you that a pulley give you a 2-to-1 advantage. Now, this isn't a perfect pulley, but there are some friction points in there that counter balance it not being perfect...from what I understand, you still end up with close to the 2-to-1 advantage in the end.

Think about what this means: Mechanical advantage in your 3-ring system is multiplicative. That means that by getting rid of the 2-to-1 pulley, you're basically doubling the pull forces involved. For this reason, Reverse Risers are, IMO, a very bad idea.

There used to be a cool chart floating around (I think RWS published it) that showed the different cutaway pull forces, based on loading, for different risers types. It was amazing how much higher the Reverse Riser numbers were!

Add to this that in a high speed mal (bag lock, etc.), the rings may remain pinned against you, rendering them useless when you cutaway. Since the rings are in contact with the harness, they aren't able to flip through themselves and release. YOU HAVE TO DO IT MANUALLY. Not a cool thing, IMO...

In the end, as has been said, the most important thing about your risers is that they are constructed within the approved tolerances. If they're not, they don't have the correct angles needed to make those little levers and pulley do what they do so well. So, in the end, you're probably better off having almost anything made correctly, as opposed to even the burliest risers made outside of spec.

So, good people, think about where you're buying your after-market risers from. Make sure it's a shop with a good reputation for production, or go straight to the mfg. Be aware and ask questions!!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[nightjumps 1]

Ryan,

There is so much good information in here that I'm going to ask if I can submit it to the S&T Discussion forum for consideration as an article in the Safety\Gear section.

They may contact you directly to expand on it or refine it a little. Would you mind if I did that?

[rigging65 0]

PM sent.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[MagicLou 0]

PD Sabre2-190
PD Reserve 176

Lou
___________________________________
. . . now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb - Dark Helmet

[MagicLou 0]

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The reason and point is that this is his first rig and that first rig will most likely (99% chance) get biffed in atleast once. Cordura will last longer, look better then parapak.

Gee Dave you really are a "glass half full" type of person aren't you?

Lou
___________________________________
. . . now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb - Dark Helmet

[AggieDave 6]

Nope, its just that I was there (am there sometimes) and have seen it time and time and time and time and time and time (well, you know what I'm saying) again.

It does and will happen.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[MagicLou 0]

{blue]

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Nope, its just that I was there (am there sometimes) and have seen it time and time and time and time and time and time (well, you know what I'm saying) again.

It does and will happen.

Well I guess if your glass is half empty I'll have to buy you a beer!

Lou
___________________________________
. . . now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb - Dark Helmet

[sundevil777 102]

I went with the wide risers and std rings, but my rig is large (210 main/225 reserve), so not much comfort to be gained with small rings.

Some would argue that the risers are a good component to be sacrificed when an opening is so violent that it would likely harm the jumper - therefore the lower strength of mini risers compared to wide risers is good.

This idea of a 'load fuse' is very appealing to me, but I think that the mechanism should be more engineered. If risers should be replaced every 400 jumps or so, then the 'capacity' of the 'fuse' changes too much over a small time for my liking.

I'm very happy with my Infinity. The quality of the manufacturing and simple design are a great combination.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[GravityGirl 0]

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PD Sabre2-190
PD Reserve 176

Providing your exit weight isn't over 220, I'ld go with mini-risers, mini-rings.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[MagicLou 0]

My "Dry Weight" is 175.

Lou
___________________________________
. . . now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb - Dark Helmet

[Shark 0]

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Glad you're going Infinity. What a great company Velocity is, and what a great product. I couldn't have been happier with the service, price, or equipment.

I personally liked mini rings and smaller risers. I have the "normal" (type 8) webbing for the chest strap.

Stainless hardware.... and I'll admit I knew it would not be "as safe", but did it anyway

I concur, plus Kelly and Company will take care of you.

[srg 0]

Question: Are the rings on the harness the same size with either style riser? Can you switch riser styles without getting a new container?

"Be braver -- you can't cross a chasm in two small jumps."

[MagicLou 0]

The PDF order sheet on the web site seems to suggest that you can order can.

The page is here;

http://www.skydivenet.com/vse/manual/order.pdf

Lou
___________________________________
. . . now you see that evil will always triumph because good is dumb - Dark Helmet

[PhreeZone 20]

If you get the large risers with large rings they will not fit a rig that was made for mini rings. If the rig was made for large rings then either size risers with rings will fit. You can get large risers with mini rings if you call and special request them from a few manufactors, but its very unusual.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

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New Type-17 risers are called "Super" mini risers. This is because they are reinforced at the grommet (the only real threat area for breakage). In fact, I'm not aware of anywhere that you can get non-super mini risers any more.

So, we've greatly reduced the possibility of riser breakage...what's next?

I was under the impression that in a very-hard opening scenario you want the risers to break. If they take the brunt of the force and break, then the forces are not transfered to your body. Why then would you want to strengthen the area around the grommet.

I was on a tube-dive where the guy I was holding onto had his PC come out while we were traveling anywhere between 170-190mph (the video guy was Jason Peters on his head). So this guy had a high speed premature opening, and I flipped onto my back to watch him open - one riser broke just after the canopy (a triatholon) started to inflate - he was on his side when it deployed, so it wasn't a symetrical deployment, and he had a streamer. He had no problem chopping the remaining riser.

When he landed, he only had some bruises across his chest, but wasn't hurt. Oh yea, there as nothing wrong with the canopy either.

It broke at the gromet, I'm just wondering what would have happened to him if it didn't.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....

[rigging65 0]

As Phree stated, no, the same base rings are not used with Large and Small rings. BUT, if you order Large rings, you can put small ringed risers on them...doesn't work the other way around though.

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[rigging65 0]

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I was under the impression that in a very-hard opening scenario you want the risers to break.

I think there is some validity to this point, but here's the problem: How do you build a frangible piece of equipment (a riser that will break at a given stress) but also build something that won't break over time? If you replace your risers every 400 jumps or so, it's probably not such a big deal...but since most people don't, you're probably better off building something bulletproof for the masses.

Also, since lots of people are using RSL's (and more surely will when/if the SkyHook becomes available to the "rest" of the public), you've also got the problem of premature reserve deployments on a broken riser. Now, there are some ways to secure the RSL ring below the grommet (and even one certified way that I'm aware of that lets the ring slip loose of the riser if it were to break lower than the grommet), but most mfgs. put the RSL attachment ring above the grommet. That's bad juju if you're not using a reinforced system, or a system designed to break at the grommet.

Add to this that pretty much every canopy that's come into the market place in the past 5 years has some design parameters for soft openings built into them (and most are working!!), I think the propensity for a "riser breaking" opening are probably very few and far between these days.

Yes, if you were to have a wickedly hard opening with old-skool risers, they may break...keeping you from absorbing the shock, but then what? Now you're dazed and confused, with a streaming canopy over your head. Are you with-it enough to cutaway? Are you traveling fast enough to activate your Cypres (that's a double edged question if I've ever heard one...)? If you do get it together to cutaway, do you do it in a timely enough manner to save your ass?

If you get rocked by an opening with "new" risers, odds are they aren't going to break. Odds are also pretty good that the canopy is going to remain mostly intact as well. They're being built with more reinforcements and with better opening characteristics all the time. So, possible worse case, you blow a few lines, get knocked silly, and land under a turning canopy. Could be fatal, most likely just breaks you up...but you've got most all the canopy above you, not just a streamer.

I think you kind of have to chalk this up to user intervention. If you're a good little jumper and change out the gear you're supposed to change out, when you're supposed to change it out...all this is most likely not an issue. If you're like most jumpers and have NO CLUE about this sort of stuff, well, the mfgs. are doing their best to keep you safe.

Some mfgs. have made better strides than others when it comes to this sort of safety (hats off to RWS, great job guys...), the rest are catching up though and thats a really good thing for all of us!

Knowledge is power folks, and not having it can be dangerous to your health!! Ask questions...

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."

[AggieDave 6]

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and more surely will when/if the SkyHook becomes available to the "rest" of the public

You know that Skyhook rigs have Collin's laynards, right?

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[rigging65 0]

Yes. And, as I understand it, the Collin's style lanyard would have to be integrated into any rig by any mfg. before you can use a SkyHook. But there will be other systems like SkyHook out there at some point, and they may not include that sort of system...although they will increase RSL use.

Patents are wonderful things for the creator, but there is always more than one way to skin a cat. The SkyHook "idea" can be replicated in at least a few different ways without violating the patent, it's just going to take time, money and drive to do it...

I guess that was clear in my head, but I never did say anything about it in my post!

"...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward.
For there you have been, and there you long to return..."