base689 0 #26 January 24, 2005 > *cough*Bullshit*cough* > I will second J.P.'s sentiments on that topic When, even if I am a countryfellow of Marco's, I'd rather agree with you two. To claim that something is more effective than something else, to say that a type of track is more effective ("...you cover more ground...") than another type of track, it is simply a legend/feeling/superstition if not suppoorted by real evidence, by real facts (=a very nice GPS track). I do agree that in the atmonauti track, being the body more vertical, you could get a real lift, but I am afraid you are really going also very "down", so what counts here is the overall trajectory that your body does with respect to vertical (or to horizontal, if you prefer). Few years ago I did a couple of skydives (tracking) with a my GPS attached to my helmet and I downloaded track onto my computer: very "noisy" data, what could have been considered reliable was the average track, sort of 0.28 (just trying to remember/guess here...). Yes, I know I am NOT the best tracker in the world. About one year ago I did a skydive still with GPS onto my helmet, it was a tracking skydive with my smoke pantz on (I cannot say they did inflate so well, at the time...): this time as average efficiency I got something like 0.34 (or so). To make short a long story: to really be able to demonstrate that an atmonauti track is way better than a standard track, we should get two nice GPS tracks downloaded onto a computer, where first track got from a standard tracking skydive and the second got from an atmonauti tracking, compulsorily the two skydives done by the same folk, possibly by someone very proficient in doing atmonauti track. Then we could decide which is better than the other. Possibily with more than one couple of tracking jumps (standard track/atmonauti track), because GPS data (from our skydives) tend to be quite "noisy". Just my 0.02€.Stay safe out there Blue Skies and Soft Walls BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Han-Solo 0 #27 January 24, 2005 what is this "standard track" that you all are referring to? what is actually the difference between a naughty track TM, and another good steep track? if angle of attack is the only variation, i don't really see what the fuzz is all about. any poasistion has its optimal angle of attack, which usually is much steeper than most skydivers realize. if there are other differences, please enlighten me... i'd really like to learn about this. and for the record; i'm in! ps. gps plots from bigwall tracks have shown terminal glide ratios around 1:1. other jumps done without gps somtimes has proven better than this too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
veter_ 0 #28 January 24, 2005 Wind introduces unknown variable to GPS data. To eliminate wind, two skydivers (each with GPS) should jump simultaneously: one would track, another would make a human ball (tuck hands and legs in, as close to spherical shape as possible) and fall "straight" down (relative to wind). By subtracting the horizontal speed of the reference jumper, we get the accurate measure of the tracking speed and true glide ratio. Same experiment with atmonaughty Share this post Link to post Share on other sites veter_ 0 #29 January 24, 2005 I think this guy did glide ratio 10:1 or something from a big wall, without pants or wings. I propose to call it "f*** you I won't do what you tell me"-naughty (TM) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jerry81 10 #30 January 24, 2005 Quotewhat is this "standard track" that you all are referring to? what is actually the difference between a naughty track TM, and another good steep track? if angle of attack is the only variation, i don't really see what the fuzz is all about. any poasistion has its optimal angle of attack, which usually is much steeper than most skydivers realize. if there are other differences, please enlighten me... It's body position. In a 'standard track' you're cupping air with your body and trying to fly flat. Atmonauti is a more head low position with your arms and legs open in a sort of headdown straddle. As far as comparing goes, we were working on 'trackmonauti' (patent pending) formations at the Gran Canaria Boogie with half of the people flying a pretty flat tracking formation and half of them flying atmonauti over the rabbit. That worked ok, but if you wanted to compare a hard survival track (like from a terminal wall) with an atmonauti track, I'd put my money on the former, even if you did get Marco to fly it (but even though he may be a master of the technique, it's Gi who really kicks ass...) And while I have really no idea what effect tracking wear would have on an atmonauti track, I do have a pair of smoking pants that I can try taking out of the plane to see what happens. Btw; the whole atmo-tm-thing has been beaten to death repeatedly in the freefly forum. Call it what you will, I see no reason to bring this into this discussion as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #31 January 25, 2005 Quoteany poasistion has its optimal angle of attack, which usually is much steeper than most skydivers realize. Actually from my observations, these days most skydivers track too steep. Something that comes from having all the excess energy when leaving a freefly dive. A good skydiver can track much flater and farther for best seperation.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Han-Solo 0 #32 January 25, 2005 well actually he did about 50 deg below the horizontal line at the best parts of the jump, which is okey for an old school technique... he does alot better now! take a look at these clips to see some examples: http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~hansho of course wind is a factor when jumping from a plane, but most big wall jumps (i hope) are done in "relatively" calm conditions, so any gps log would be informative of the glide ratio. QuoteIt's body position. In a 'standard track' you're cupping air with your body and trying to fly flat. Atmonauti is a more head low position with your arms and legs open in a sort of headdown straddle. as i understand this it's very similar to the way big wall tracking has evolved; wider and steeper position, with head low trying to cut through the air instead of trying to float on it. i guess atmonauti is as good a name as any, but its all about developing our way to fly Share this post Link to post Share on other sites veter_ 0 #33 January 25, 2005 Fantastic tracking! Liked the music from spiret.wmv. Is this album "Perfect Circle" by Big Bang? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Han-Solo 0 #34 January 25, 2005 i'm not sure about the name of the album, but the tune is "mountain song" (yes, big bang) the guy in the other low flyby clip, does most of the filming in these ones. all done tracking (no ws). is this similar to the atmonauti way of flying? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base689 0 #35 January 25, 2005 > is this similar to the atmonauti way of flying? Not at all. Sorry, I do not know how to make URL's clicky, but I am sure you get to their website anyway: http://www.atmonauti.com/ first, choose English language, then click on ATMONAUTI, then on ATMONAUTI?, then on TECHNIQUE, there it is explained very well the technique, the angles they claim they get and, moreover, there are pictures of body position, that is quite different from a "standard" track position (standard track position being (more or less): body stretched, legs a little bit apart, stretched arms along your body and a little bit apart from body itself, you know better than me how to get a MAX TRACK position).Stay safe out there Blue Skies and Soft Walls BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Faber 0 #36 January 25, 2005 http://www.atmonauti.com/ Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base689 0 #37 January 25, 2005 Thanks mate. BTW, did you manage to buy a 10 AA battery holder yet?Stay safe out there Blue Skies and Soft Walls BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites whatever 0 #38 January 26, 2005 hey Faber what he said: QuoteThanks mate. BTW, did you manage to buy a 10 AA battery holder yet? Stay safe out there Blue Skies and Soft Walls BASE #689 if you haven't found one, let me know and I'll buy one (they're like $2 here!) and either post it to you or drop it with one of your English buddies when I go to London in March later sam soon to be gone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #39 January 26, 2005 Any data on the effectiveness of an 'atmonauti' vs a flat track at sub terminal speeds (approaching terminal)? I'm wondering about the efficiency ( alt. lost vs distance covered) of an atmo jump at just below terminal speed vs that of the flat track... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Faber 0 #40 January 26, 2005 No worryes 689 pméd you Sam Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fab777 0 #41 January 26, 2005 If you want to have an idea of the efficiency of this style of tracking, there's plenty of pictures on their websites, on which you can compare the body position with the path, marked by fumes. I'm not impressed. That seems to be freefly, rather than something really new... Fabien BASE#944 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimmyh 0 #42 January 27, 2005 Again. The point is not whether a "traditional" track is more or less efficient than an atmonouti. Both forms will get get you far enough away from a big wall for a safe deployment. It's that the atmonouti is highly conducive to RW while maintaining consitent horizontal movement away from said cliff. That's the reason I think we should explore it's potential as BASE jumpers. If you watch Atle tracking off six in my video, difficult because I added some wierd solarization effect that generally takes away from the impressivness of the jump itself, you will notice that he tracks for 23 seconds from 3,000 ft. and dumps right over the grass landing area. A truly impressive feat. BUT...I would call his body position a split between a skydiving max track and an atmonouti. At lodi, we call the style a "crab track." When I saw Atle do it, I thought "Wow, with a little practice with atmonouti we could potentially fly a line for two thirds of the jump, break off, track away from each other, and all dump over the lighthouse." again, who's in? Cuz I'm goin back this summer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Atmodude 0 #43 January 27, 2005 again i'm in ! And as you said the best track i think is between atmo and a flat track, you track out someone who's doing atmonauti if you go between those angles, already done 100000 times. Let's start to see who really want to be part of it !:-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unclecharlie109 0 #44 January 27, 2005 Quote Wow, with a little practice with atmonouti we could potentially fly a line for two thirds of the jump, break off, track away from each other, and all dump over the lighthouse. Good luck jimmy. Certainly an ambitous idea. I'll video! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 0 Go To Topic Listing
veter_ 0 #29 January 24, 2005 I think this guy did glide ratio 10:1 or something from a big wall, without pants or wings. I propose to call it "f*** you I won't do what you tell me"-naughty (TM) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerry81 10 #30 January 24, 2005 Quotewhat is this "standard track" that you all are referring to? what is actually the difference between a naughty track TM, and another good steep track? if angle of attack is the only variation, i don't really see what the fuzz is all about. any poasistion has its optimal angle of attack, which usually is much steeper than most skydivers realize. if there are other differences, please enlighten me... It's body position. In a 'standard track' you're cupping air with your body and trying to fly flat. Atmonauti is a more head low position with your arms and legs open in a sort of headdown straddle. As far as comparing goes, we were working on 'trackmonauti' (patent pending) formations at the Gran Canaria Boogie with half of the people flying a pretty flat tracking formation and half of them flying atmonauti over the rabbit. That worked ok, but if you wanted to compare a hard survival track (like from a terminal wall) with an atmonauti track, I'd put my money on the former, even if you did get Marco to fly it (but even though he may be a master of the technique, it's Gi who really kicks ass...) And while I have really no idea what effect tracking wear would have on an atmonauti track, I do have a pair of smoking pants that I can try taking out of the plane to see what happens. Btw; the whole atmo-tm-thing has been beaten to death repeatedly in the freefly forum. Call it what you will, I see no reason to bring this into this discussion as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #31 January 25, 2005 Quoteany poasistion has its optimal angle of attack, which usually is much steeper than most skydivers realize. Actually from my observations, these days most skydivers track too steep. Something that comes from having all the excess energy when leaving a freefly dive. A good skydiver can track much flater and farther for best seperation.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Han-Solo 0 #32 January 25, 2005 well actually he did about 50 deg below the horizontal line at the best parts of the jump, which is okey for an old school technique... he does alot better now! take a look at these clips to see some examples: http://www.stud.ntnu.no/~hansho of course wind is a factor when jumping from a plane, but most big wall jumps (i hope) are done in "relatively" calm conditions, so any gps log would be informative of the glide ratio. QuoteIt's body position. In a 'standard track' you're cupping air with your body and trying to fly flat. Atmonauti is a more head low position with your arms and legs open in a sort of headdown straddle. as i understand this it's very similar to the way big wall tracking has evolved; wider and steeper position, with head low trying to cut through the air instead of trying to float on it. i guess atmonauti is as good a name as any, but its all about developing our way to fly Share this post Link to post Share on other sites veter_ 0 #33 January 25, 2005 Fantastic tracking! Liked the music from spiret.wmv. Is this album "Perfect Circle" by Big Bang? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Han-Solo 0 #34 January 25, 2005 i'm not sure about the name of the album, but the tune is "mountain song" (yes, big bang) the guy in the other low flyby clip, does most of the filming in these ones. all done tracking (no ws). is this similar to the atmonauti way of flying? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base689 0 #35 January 25, 2005 > is this similar to the atmonauti way of flying? Not at all. Sorry, I do not know how to make URL's clicky, but I am sure you get to their website anyway: http://www.atmonauti.com/ first, choose English language, then click on ATMONAUTI, then on ATMONAUTI?, then on TECHNIQUE, there it is explained very well the technique, the angles they claim they get and, moreover, there are pictures of body position, that is quite different from a "standard" track position (standard track position being (more or less): body stretched, legs a little bit apart, stretched arms along your body and a little bit apart from body itself, you know better than me how to get a MAX TRACK position).Stay safe out there Blue Skies and Soft Walls BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Faber 0 #36 January 25, 2005 http://www.atmonauti.com/ Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base689 0 #37 January 25, 2005 Thanks mate. BTW, did you manage to buy a 10 AA battery holder yet?Stay safe out there Blue Skies and Soft Walls BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites whatever 0 #38 January 26, 2005 hey Faber what he said: QuoteThanks mate. BTW, did you manage to buy a 10 AA battery holder yet? Stay safe out there Blue Skies and Soft Walls BASE #689 if you haven't found one, let me know and I'll buy one (they're like $2 here!) and either post it to you or drop it with one of your English buddies when I go to London in March later sam soon to be gone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Zoter 0 #39 January 26, 2005 Any data on the effectiveness of an 'atmonauti' vs a flat track at sub terminal speeds (approaching terminal)? I'm wondering about the efficiency ( alt. lost vs distance covered) of an atmo jump at just below terminal speed vs that of the flat track... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Faber 0 #40 January 26, 2005 No worryes 689 pméd you Sam Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites fab777 0 #41 January 26, 2005 If you want to have an idea of the efficiency of this style of tracking, there's plenty of pictures on their websites, on which you can compare the body position with the path, marked by fumes. I'm not impressed. That seems to be freefly, rather than something really new... Fabien BASE#944 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jimmyh 0 #42 January 27, 2005 Again. The point is not whether a "traditional" track is more or less efficient than an atmonouti. Both forms will get get you far enough away from a big wall for a safe deployment. It's that the atmonouti is highly conducive to RW while maintaining consitent horizontal movement away from said cliff. That's the reason I think we should explore it's potential as BASE jumpers. If you watch Atle tracking off six in my video, difficult because I added some wierd solarization effect that generally takes away from the impressivness of the jump itself, you will notice that he tracks for 23 seconds from 3,000 ft. and dumps right over the grass landing area. A truly impressive feat. BUT...I would call his body position a split between a skydiving max track and an atmonouti. At lodi, we call the style a "crab track." When I saw Atle do it, I thought "Wow, with a little practice with atmonouti we could potentially fly a line for two thirds of the jump, break off, track away from each other, and all dump over the lighthouse." again, who's in? Cuz I'm goin back this summer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Atmodude 0 #43 January 27, 2005 again i'm in ! And as you said the best track i think is between atmo and a flat track, you track out someone who's doing atmonauti if you go between those angles, already done 100000 times. Let's start to see who really want to be part of it !:-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites unclecharlie109 0 #44 January 27, 2005 Quote Wow, with a little practice with atmonouti we could potentially fly a line for two thirds of the jump, break off, track away from each other, and all dump over the lighthouse. Good luck jimmy. Certainly an ambitous idea. I'll video! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 2 of 2 0
veter_ 0 #33 January 25, 2005 Fantastic tracking! Liked the music from spiret.wmv. Is this album "Perfect Circle" by Big Bang? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Han-Solo 0 #34 January 25, 2005 i'm not sure about the name of the album, but the tune is "mountain song" (yes, big bang) the guy in the other low flyby clip, does most of the filming in these ones. all done tracking (no ws). is this similar to the atmonauti way of flying? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base689 0 #35 January 25, 2005 > is this similar to the atmonauti way of flying? Not at all. Sorry, I do not know how to make URL's clicky, but I am sure you get to their website anyway: http://www.atmonauti.com/ first, choose English language, then click on ATMONAUTI, then on ATMONAUTI?, then on TECHNIQUE, there it is explained very well the technique, the angles they claim they get and, moreover, there are pictures of body position, that is quite different from a "standard" track position (standard track position being (more or less): body stretched, legs a little bit apart, stretched arms along your body and a little bit apart from body itself, you know better than me how to get a MAX TRACK position).Stay safe out there Blue Skies and Soft Walls BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #36 January 25, 2005 http://www.atmonauti.com/ Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base689 0 #37 January 25, 2005 Thanks mate. BTW, did you manage to buy a 10 AA battery holder yet?Stay safe out there Blue Skies and Soft Walls BASE #689 - base_689AT_NO_123_SPAMyahoo.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
whatever 0 #38 January 26, 2005 hey Faber what he said: QuoteThanks mate. BTW, did you manage to buy a 10 AA battery holder yet? Stay safe out there Blue Skies and Soft Walls BASE #689 if you haven't found one, let me know and I'll buy one (they're like $2 here!) and either post it to you or drop it with one of your English buddies when I go to London in March later sam soon to be gone Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zoter 0 #39 January 26, 2005 Any data on the effectiveness of an 'atmonauti' vs a flat track at sub terminal speeds (approaching terminal)? I'm wondering about the efficiency ( alt. lost vs distance covered) of an atmo jump at just below terminal speed vs that of the flat track... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #40 January 26, 2005 No worryes 689 pméd you Sam Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fab777 0 #41 January 26, 2005 If you want to have an idea of the efficiency of this style of tracking, there's plenty of pictures on their websites, on which you can compare the body position with the path, marked by fumes. I'm not impressed. That seems to be freefly, rather than something really new... Fabien BASE#944 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmyh 0 #42 January 27, 2005 Again. The point is not whether a "traditional" track is more or less efficient than an atmonouti. Both forms will get get you far enough away from a big wall for a safe deployment. It's that the atmonouti is highly conducive to RW while maintaining consitent horizontal movement away from said cliff. That's the reason I think we should explore it's potential as BASE jumpers. If you watch Atle tracking off six in my video, difficult because I added some wierd solarization effect that generally takes away from the impressivness of the jump itself, you will notice that he tracks for 23 seconds from 3,000 ft. and dumps right over the grass landing area. A truly impressive feat. BUT...I would call his body position a split between a skydiving max track and an atmonouti. At lodi, we call the style a "crab track." When I saw Atle do it, I thought "Wow, with a little practice with atmonouti we could potentially fly a line for two thirds of the jump, break off, track away from each other, and all dump over the lighthouse." again, who's in? Cuz I'm goin back this summer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Atmodude 0 #43 January 27, 2005 again i'm in ! And as you said the best track i think is between atmo and a flat track, you track out someone who's doing atmonauti if you go between those angles, already done 100000 times. Let's start to see who really want to be part of it !:-) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
unclecharlie109 0 #44 January 27, 2005 Quote Wow, with a little practice with atmonouti we could potentially fly a line for two thirds of the jump, break off, track away from each other, and all dump over the lighthouse. Good luck jimmy. Certainly an ambitous idea. I'll video! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
