Is this normal?

[liftedtitan 0]

Instructor holding the PC in the doorway as students exit? Seems kinda risky.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHbTJWQoDeY

Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.

[julio_gyn 0]

IAD maybe?

Julio Cesar
blue skies

[dragon2 2]

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Instructor holding the PC in the doorway as students exit? Seems kinda risky.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHbTJWQoDeY

Yup, that's IAD. It's a way of training new jumpers, like staticline but without the need for static line gear.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Zaccelerator 0]

The instructor is on radio under canopy?

[Skyper 0]

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Instructor holding the PC in the doorway as students exit? Seems kinda risky.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHbTJWQoDeY

Yup, that's IAD. It's a way of training new jumpers, like staticline but without the need for static line gear.

I wouldn't like to imagine what would happend if...

- the student slips by accident on while climbing out
- the bridle snags on some part of the plane
- the bridle/pc snags on the instructors arm or part of his equipment
- the student goes a bit too fast to the door and pulls the pin
- the instructor remains a bit longer behind the student and pulls the pin

imho, way too much risk

[riggerpaul 1]

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Instructor holding the PC in the doorway as students exit? Seems kinda risky.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHbTJWQoDeY

Yup, that's IAD. It's a way of training new jumpers, like staticline but without the need for static line gear.

I wouldn't like to imagine what would happend if...

- the student slips by accident on while climbing out
- the bridle snags on some part of the plane
- the bridle/pc snags on the instructors arm or part of his equipment
- the student goes a bit too fast to the door and pulls the pin
- the instructor remains a bit longer behind the student and pulls the pin

imho, way too much risk

Thank you for sharing.

[Squeak 17]

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Thank you for sharing.

Looks like Ali had a very interesting first jump

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[jumpsalot-2 3]

Not mentioning the landing on a roof......what about the first guy with the wrist cam, for a bridel snag potential ?

Life is short ... jump often.

[billvon 3,068]

>the student slips by accident on while climbing out

Then his parachute opens.

>the bridle snags on some part of the plane

Then his parachute opens and you end up with a student in tow, which of course can happen with any static line system.

> the bridle/pc snags on the instructors arm or part of his equipment

Then his parachute opens. It may or may not pull the instructor out of the airplane at that point. (Note that this is better than pulling on the entire airplane, as would happen with a static line snag.)

> the student goes a bit too fast to the door and pulls the pin

Then his parachute opens.

>the instructor remains a bit longer behind the student and pulls the pin

Then his parachute opens.

The SL/direct bag, SL/PC assist and IAD methods are three variations on a theme. All open the student's parachute shortly after exit. They all have their pluses and minuses. By not attaching the student to the airplane, one of the biggest problems with SL (student in tow) is avoided - although, of course, no system is perfect.

[Skyper 0]

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>the student slips by accident on while climbing out

Then his parachute opens.

>the bridle snags on some part of the plane

Then his parachute opens and you end up with a student in tow, which of course can happen with any static line system.

> the bridle/pc snags on the instructors arm or part of his equipment

Then his parachute opens. It may or may not pull the instructor out of the airplane at that point. (Note that this is better than pulling on the entire airplane, as would happen with a static line snag.)

> the student goes a bit too fast to the door and pulls the pin

Then his parachute opens.

>the instructor remains a bit longer behind the student and pulls the pin

Then his parachute opens.

The SL/direct bag, SL/PC assist and IAD methods are three variations on a theme. All open the student's parachute shortly after exit. They all have their pluses and minuses. By not attaching the student to the airplane, one of the biggest problems with SL (student in tow) is avoided - although, of course, no system is perfect.

Bill, thanks for explanation.
There is important difference between SL and this "method".
SL is not connected to canopy but only to pin and free bag. Which means that any snag of the static line to any part of the plane or any part of instructor in the worst case may result in a bit premature opening of the main - and indeed nothing happens.

However in IAD... PC and bridle are connected to main canopy - if PC or bridle snag to any part of the plane means that the part of the canopy remains connected to plane or to instructor and this is a different situation than SL snag. This may result in premature opening on the door and snag of the PC, bridle or other part of the canopy to the plane. Therefore I think this method induces more risks than SL.

[riggerpaul 1]

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Bill, thanks for explanation.
There is important difference between SL and this "method".
SL is not connected to canopy but only to pin and free bag. Which means that any snag of the static line to any part of the plane or any part of instructor in the worst case may result in a bit premature opening of the main - and indeed nothing happens.

However in IAD... PC and bridle are connected to main canopy - if PC or bridle snag to any part of the plane means that the part of the canopy remains connected to plane or to instructor and this is a different situation than SL snag. This may result in premature opening on the door and snag of the PC, bridle or other part of the canopy to the plane. Therefore I think this method induces more risks than SL.

What you have described is "direct bag". It is just one of the S/L gear systems.

There are other S/L systems that are much more like IAD, with a regular pilot chute and the bag still attached to the main canopy.

Different systems have different strengths and weaknesses.

Direct bag is commonly thought to have a greater occurrence of line twists, for instance.

Any training system requires skilled instructors who can control the systems in the face of student's unexpected actions. None are without their own special limitations and considerations.

[pchapman 279]

IAD is an accepted procedure, but, yes, it is more complex for the instructor than tossing static line students. The instructors do need more in depth training. There are procedures to control the bridle so that the bridle and PC stay near the student, and you don't have the student "getting away". Yes, you sure don't want to snag the bridle.

I'm not an IAD instructor but one technique I've seen, for example, is to keep the PC held at the upper back (bottom of neck) of the student, with one's hand always following the student's movements. That should avoid having the PC still in the airplane while the student rushes out on the step and that sort of thing.

I only skimmed the original video and I'm not sure how well the IAD was done in it.

[Remster 30]

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IAD maybe?

Some very ugly IAD technique...

I havent tossed students out in a few years, but the technique that guy uses scares the shit out of me... I don't think he would have passed any CSPA rating classes...

Remster

[peek 21]

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Some very ugly IAD technique ... but the technique that guy uses scares the shit out of me... I don't think he would have passed any CSPA rating classes...

No shit, I wouldn't do it that way!

For the benefit of you folks who don't know anything about IAD, it is generally accepted that the instructor should be out on the step with the student, or at least close enough to always have the pilot chute very close to the back of the student's rig.

If you see it done that way it seems like a more reasonable deployment method. Can anyone point out some video of good IAD jumpmastering of real students?

Here are a couple of me with experienced jumpers, when I was working toward my rating. (Even these could have been better.)

http://www.skydivestlouisarea.com/instruction/iadexitc182.mpg
http://www.skydivestlouisarea.com/instruction/iadexitcaravan.mpg

[Andy9o8 2]

You shoulda been gigged on Jump #2 for letting your student jump w/o a helmet.

[billvon 3,068]

>SL is not connected to canopy but only to pin and free bag.

You are referring to "direct bag" which is one method of SL. Another common method is PC assist, where a fairly standard rig has the pin pulled by the static line and then begins opening normally. The PC (spring loaded or throwout) is 'assisted' into the air by a velcro or break-cord connection between the static line and the pilot chute.

> Which means that any snag of the static line to any part of the plane or any part of
>instructor in the worst case may result in a bit premature opening of the main - and
>indeed nothing happens.

Agreed. However, in that system, the most unpredictable part of the entire assembly is the student - and indeed students sometimes manage to get themselves caught in the SL (or get a bight of the SL around part of the container or something.) This results in a 'student in tow' which is one of those scenarios that SL jumpmasters dread, because if a student is entangled with the aircraft and they deploy the reserve something (airplane, student, student's gear) is going to break. Compare that to a student wrapping the bridle around their hand or something; they are at that point clear of the aircraft and can deploy the reserve without danger to aircraft and with less danger to themselves.

One difference between IAD and SL is that the JM has control of a lot more of what goes on during IAD. If he is good then he has complete control over where the PC ends up. In SL, there's generally a loop of SL between the student and the JM that's not under his direct control.

Ironically this caused me enough problems that I started coiling up the SL and holding it in my right hand just above his back while I controlled his climbout with my left hand. The instant he exited I released the SL so that it would pay out behind him then pull the pin when the slack came out. This ends up being almost identical to the IAD procedure.

I've put out ~100 students via PC assist and ~500 via direct bag. I've done about half a dozen IAD deployments with "fake" students (i.e. experienced jumpers) and I much prefer it; it gives you far more control and is less likely to have problems with entanglements. Openings are also far better than direct bag since the canopy is deploying with the relative wind hitting the slider from beneath, instead of from above.

[riggerrob 643]

That IAD jump-master technique fell out of fashion twenty-some-odd years ago.

Since then (circa 1992), standard practice has been for the J/M to grip both the pilot chute and student's harness with his right hand, while he uses his left hand for balance as he climbs out on the strut with the student. Modern instructors climb out far enough to yell directly into the student's left ear.

With one hand holding both the pilot-chute and harness, it prevents the student from surprising the instructor by climbing out too fast.

That grip also allows the instructor to "assist" students who climb out too slowly.

A third benefit is that it reduces the amount of bridle blowing in the breeze, reducing the risk of a pre-mature deployment.

The last major change to IAD J/M techniques was to shift the harness grip from the yoke/shoulder to a hip/lateral strap grip. This keeps the pilot-chute low, reducing the risk of entanglement with the horizontal stabilizer (airplane part) during a pre-mature deployment. It also requires a shorter arm movement to "place" the pilot-chute below the level of the door frame.

Rob Warner
USPA S/L and IAD Instructor
CSPA S/L, IAD and PFF Instructor
Strong Tandem Examiner
FAA Master Rigger

[bofh 0]

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Since then (circa 1992), standard practice has been for the J/M to grip both the pilot chute and student's harness with his right hand, while he uses his left hand for balance as he climbs out on the strut with the student. Modern instructors climb out far enough to yell directly into the student's left ear.

That depends on the plane.

I was a student in a skyvan and there the JM had one hand on the chest strap (to push the student back if the student didn't jump far enough backwards or cushion the impact...) and the other hand on the shoulder with PC (as far as I remember). I don't think the "standard practice" would have worked so well there.

In the PAC750 we let the students sit in the front part of the door while the JM is kneeling besides them holding the student with one hand and the PC near the neck with the other, then following them down/back with the arm and dropping the PC above the students head when one can't reach any further. I do think that's the best we can do with that plane. But we do not teach many students that way as we sell AFF.

[hcsvader 1]

Here is a video of my dispatching an IAD student last summer. I did my CSPA IAD jumpmaster rating last spring.

Pretty much shows everything riggerrob describes.
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=478728309046&saved

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[riggerrob 643]

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Since then (circa 1992), standard practice has been for the J/M to grip both the pilot chute and student's harness with his right hand, while he uses his left hand for balance as he climbs out on the strut with the student. Modern instructors climb out far enough to yell directly into the student's left ear.

That depends on the plane.

I was a student in a skyvan and there the JM had one hand on the chest strap (to push the student back if the student didn't jump far enough backwards or cushion the impact...) and the other hand on the shoulder with PC (as far as I remember). I don't think the "standard practice" would have worked so well there.

In the PAC750 we let the students sit in the front part of the door while the JM is kneeling besides them holding the student with one hand and the PC near the neck with the other, then following them down/back with the arm and dropping the PC above the students head when one can't reach any further. I do think that's the best we can do with that plane. But we do not teach many students that way as we sell AFF.

........................................................................

Sorry, but I was discussing IAD methods that work best with Cessna 182 (as seen in the first video), Cessna 170, 172, 175, 180, 182, 185, 205, P206, 207 and early 210s.
Other airplanes required modifying techniques.
However, a common technique is using the same hand to grip the pilot-chutes as you use to "control" the student's harness during climb-out.

[mstlaurent 0]

Is there a reason why the instructor turns by pulling only one A line instead of pulling the front riser?

[Arvoitus 1]

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>the student slips by accident on while climbing out

Then his parachute opens.

>the bridle snags on some part of the plane

Then his parachute opens and you end up with a student in tow, which of course can happen with any static line system.

> the bridle/pc snags on the instructors arm or part of his equipment

Then his parachute opens. It may or may not pull the instructor out of the airplane at that point. (Note that this is better than pulling on the entire airplane, as would happen with a static line snag.)

> the student goes a bit too fast to the door and pulls the pin

Then his parachute opens.

>the instructor remains a bit longer behind the student and pulls the pin

Then his parachute opens.

The SL/direct bag, SL/PC assist and IAD methods are three variations on a theme. All open the student's parachute shortly after exit. They all have their pluses and minuses. By not attaching the student to the airplane, one of the biggest problems with SL (student in tow) is avoided - although, of course, no system is perfect.

Bill, thanks for explanation.
There is important difference between SL and this "method".
SL is not connected to canopy but only to pin and free bag. Which means that any snag of the static line to any part of the plane or any part of instructor in the worst case may result in a bit premature opening of the main - and indeed nothing happens.

However in IAD... PC and bridle are connected to main canopy - if PC or bridle snag to any part of the plane means that the part of the canopy remains connected to plane or to instructor and this is a different situation than SL snag. This may result in premature opening on the door and snag of the PC, bridle or other part of the canopy to the plane. Therefore I think this method induces more risks than SL.

I'm guessing you haven't seen this video :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEewo8M---Y

Your rights end where my feelings begin.

[Skyper 0]

What do you actually want to say by posting this video?

[hcsvader 1]

That a static line hang-up is fucking scary!

Have you seen my pants?
it"s a rough life, Livin' the dream
>:)

[Arvoitus 1]

I read the part

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Which means that any snag of the static line to any part of the plane or any part of instructor in the worst case may result in a bit premature opening of the main - and indeed nothing happens.

and thought that you were saying that the worst case in SL is a premature, but re-reading I guess you didn't mean that.

Your rights end where my feelings begin.