How much $$$ to give a rigger for . . .

[kelel01 1]

Ok, here's the situation. I ordered a canopy to go in my rig. The guy who sold the rig to me hasn't yet removed the main (which I didn't buy). Next weekend I am going to take my canopy to the DZ with me, and the rigger is going to take out the old canopy and make sure that the new one will fit.

And this past weekend he popped my reserve for me to yank out the CYPRES for its 4-year.

What is a suitable amount for this trouble? He'll have to close up my reserve, but he's not going to truly repack it, just close it up.

????

Thanks!

Kelly

[PhreeZone 20]

Ask him what he charges for the services. Different riggers have different prices for different jobs. Soem will reclose it for free, others might charge from $5-20.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[chutingstar 1]

Kelly,

We charge $15 to open/reclose a reserve container inspected/packed by us to install/remove AAD or reserve handle.

As for your main removal/assembly, we charge $25, which includes an inspection of the new main.

But other riggers will charge more/less. Just ask beforehand.

Mike

ChutingStar.com

[dsbbreck 0]

I'm confused, how can a rigger open and close a reserve without legally repacking it. Don't they have to seal it with their seal? In this case the seal won't match the data card which shows who packed the reserve last.

David

"Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question."

[skysrus 0]

The only person that can open and reclose without repacking the reserve is the rigger on the pack data card.Otherwise it should be a regular repack.

[PhreeZone 20]

I believe you can open a pack job and install an AAD if its properly noted that way on the card. Its the same thing for replacing missing/broken reserve seals.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[dsbbreck 0]

Quote

I believe you can open a pack job and install an AAD if its properly noted that way on the card. Its the same thing for replacing missing/broken reserve seals.

Well that would defeat the purpose of the seal. What's to keep someone from using the reserve, packing it themself, and then getting a rigger to put on a seal by saying the old seal just broke.

I'm sure Skysrus is correct.

Edited for spelling.

David

"Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question."

[PhreeZone 20]

By noting any work done on the card, and specifically just work done you can do things like switch reserve handels and similar things. The Capewell pin test did'nt have to be done by the same rigger that packed it, it could be done by temp pinning the reserve with the existing pin in, removing the pin, testing and then replacing As long as its all properly noted on the reserve card thats all thats needed for the paperwork.

If you can convince a rigger to seal a pack job that they have not seen packed, then that rigger has other issues also. If I have a seal on my rig at the start of the day, but it falls off at the end, its easy to get a rigger to reseal it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[kelel01 1]

Quote

We charge $15 to open/reclose a reserve container inspected/packed by us to install/remove AAD or reserve handle.

As for your main removal/assembly, we charge $25, which includes an inspection of the new main.

Great, thanks! I was looking for a rough estimate of what I should expect. That helps!

Kelly

[gerryfuss 0]

Quote

Well that would defeat the purpose of the seal. What's to keep someone from using the reserve, packing it themself, and then getting a rigger to put on a seal by saying the old seal just broke.

Good for you, why don't you do that. For what reason do you want to open your reserve. I personally respect that it's to be only touched by a liscened rigger. If you want to fill the reserve compartment with paper and try to get a rigger to put a new seal on it, go for it. Bottom line is you want to mess with the reserve then you are an idiot.

[gerryfuss 0]

Quote

I believe you can open a pack job and install an AAD if its properly noted that way on the card. Its the same thing for replacing missing/broken reserve seals.

exactly. thats my understanding as well. When I purchased my cypress 2 I had it installed about a week after I had just had a repack, the same rigger installed my aad without repacking the reserve and it was documented on the card.

[riggerrob 643]

CSPA says that the last rigger - who's seal is on the ripcord - is certifying that everything inside that reserve container is airworthy.
Period.
Normally I only re-seal reserves that I have recently re-packed .... for example if I opened a recently-repacked reserve to install a Cypres.

As for putting my seal on someone else's pack job .... I have only done that a few times and only for riggers that I have worked with for many years.

[dsbbreck 0]

Quote

Good for you, why don't you do that. For what reason do you want to open your reserve. I personally respect that it's to be only touched by a liscened rigger. If you want to fill the reserve compartment with paper and try to get a rigger to put a new seal on it, go for it. Bottom line is you want to mess with the reserve then you are an idiot.

Just for clarification....I never said I would do this, I stated that is why the seal is there. To keep people from doing something this stupid. The seal is suppose to match the last entry on the data card.

David

"Socrates wasn't killed because he had the answer.......he was killed because he asked the question."

[jmfreefly 0]

I think you will also find that if a rigger re-seals the reserve (from a broken seal, or a cypress re-install), that the won't change the pack date (as they didn't actually do a re-inspection and re-pack). Otherwise, that is just pencil packing.

I guess there is nothing stopping them from doing your little scenario.

As someone stated, the seal only is a certification that the rigger states 'this has been packed properly, and been inspected and packed within the proper repack cycle' If the rigger can certify all of that after a cypress re-install, then the rigger can put their seal back on (to 're-certify' the last repack on the pack data card).

I know a few riggers that would not reseal the rig for just a broken seal. The would at least open up the rig to double check to make sure that everything is kosher (they may not do a full repack). They do more than just reseal if they can't 100% certify the packjob.

j

[jdthomas 0]

A riggers good work is priceless..
However I sometimes work for food and that is no lie..
I would "charge" you a cheesburger and a coke or you could pay 10$ that would be your choice.
On a busy DZ day, somone making a food run is worth more then money in your pocket at the end of the day.
food=

www.greenboxphotography.com

[masterrig 1]

To install or remove an AAD (Cypres) into the container of an in-date, inspected and re-packed reserve, may be done by the last rigger who had done the work, without inspecting and re-packing the reserve parachute. Otherwise, if the AAD is to be installed or removed by another rigger, the system must be inspected and re-packed. The only seal that can be put on the reserve pin is that of the rigger who actually did the work. If, someone brings a rig to me, with a broken seal and I didn't inspect and re-pack it last, I will not put my seal on it without completely inspecting and re-packing it.

Hope, this helps.

Chuck

[livnbored 0]

I'm slightly confused. I thought I learned differently. What I recall being told is that any time the seal is broken ANYTIME,... the parachute and rig must be reinspected and repacked. Now, being there some "grey areas" in rigging, it is often not seen as a big deal if the rigger who's name is on the data card opens a reserve to, say..shorten a closing loop or install/remove an AAD, and reseals it. I may be mistaken, I should go look this up before posting, but this is just what I recall.

[Rooster 0]

I'm not sure where all of you people get your information from, but the facts of life are this.

Any rigger can open any packjob, close it, seal it with their seal and make a notation as such with their certificate number and seal symbol on the packing data card WITHOUT packing the reserve. This date is only certifying what they did, the old pack date remains the same.

A rigger can replace a broken seal from another riggers packjob, as long as he is CERTAIN the rig was not opened. I mean 100%. There again he makes the appropriate notation on the packing data card and the old pack date applies.

The reason most riggers will not do these things, is even though the notations state they did not pack the rig, there is a certain amount of court liability associated with it. There are only a few riggers whose packjobs I will open and close and seal with my seal for a cypres change, and I know them and their packjobs very well.

Why don't you people read the FAR's before you make comments a bunch of new skydivers are going to read and get impressed by because anyone with more jumps than them is in their eyes somehow 'knowledgeable'.

[cousindave 0]

I live by the rule that you should treat your rigger like gold, it literally may save your life.

A good rigger's time is worth at least $40-50/hour!!!

David Ames
Used Gear Specialists
http://www.cousindave.com

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

I'm not sure where all of you people get your information from, but the facts of life are this.

Any rigger can open any packjob, close it, seal it with their seal and make a notation as such with their certificate number and seal symbol on the packing data card WITHOUT packing the reserve. This date is only certifying what they did, the old pack date remains the same.

A rigger can replace a broken seal from another riggers packjob, as long as he is CERTAIN the rig was not opened. I mean 100%. There again he makes the appropriate notation on the packing data card and the old pack date applies.

The reason most riggers will not do these things, is even though the notations state they did not pack the rig, there is a certain amount of court liability associated with it. There are only a few riggers whose packjobs I will open and close and seal with my seal for a cypres change, and I know them and their packjobs very well.

Why don't you people read the FAR's before you make comments a bunch of new skydivers are going to read and get impressed by because anyone with more jumps than them is in their eyes somehow 'knowledgeable'.

Where do I find in the FAR's that one rigger can put his seal on the work of another rigger?
FAA Part 65.133 states: "After packing a parachute he shall seal the pack with his seal in accordance with the manufacture's recommendation for that type of parachute". It does not say he can break another riggers seal, do some work and re-seal the pack with his seal.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I'm not sure where all of you people get your information from, but the facts of life are this.

What is your source?

Quote

Why don't you people read the FAR's before you make comments a bunch of new skydivers are going to read and get impressed by because anyone with more jumps than them is in their eyes somehow 'knowledgeable'.

I've read the FAR's very thoroughly and cannot find anything in them that says you can open, perform work on the reserve system and re-close the rig without re-packing the reserve. What if there is something wrong with the reserve pack job? What if you re-close it improperly? If there is an incident caused by a failure of the reserve system, which rigger is responsible?

What is your source for your "facts of life"?

Derek

[Hooknswoop 19]

*bump*

[masterrig 1]

There is a 'Field Test' according to Capewell Service Bulletin: CW03-01, where the pin does not have to be removed at all and may be performed by any certified rigger and duly noted on the packing data card. The Capewell Service Bulletin can be found on the various harness-container manufacturer's web-pages, such as Relative Workshop, Sunpath Products, Rigging innovations, etc.

Hope, this helps.

Chuck

[PackerBarry 0]

Guys, my 2 cents... I have seen several instances where a rigger put a seal on a rig that they did not pack when the seal was accidently broken while jostling in a plane etc.. most of these times were during big ways etc.. and time was at a premium. The FARs are pretty clear on what needs to happen when a pin is pulled, but there is a bit of a gray area on just the broken seal. If someone wanted me to install/remove an AAD from a reserve pack that was not my own I would not do it without a full I&R.... when my seal goes on that lead, I am betting the bank, quite literally that everything under that seal is to the best of my knowledge as a certificated FAA senior parachute rigger airworthy and serviceable. If, God forbid, something were to happen with my seal on the rig and my number on their card, the FAA would come looking for me and I'm quite certain they would have some pointed questions for me. In several of the cases in this string, I'm pretty sure that the rigger pulling the pin and installing the AAD was most likely the one who did the packing in the first place... honestly, no matter how much I trusted the guy who did the repack before me, I would be loathe to place myself in that position... in today's litigious society, even if it were to all come out in the wash.. think about what would happen to a hand to mouth happy go lucky rigger who tried to do a good deed who gets named in a law suit by a bereaved and/or pissed off family-- lawyers tend to like to add as many defendants as possible in a case to up the chances of getting settlements and even if you were found not liable, God knows what you'd end up paying in legal expenses just to remain innocent... not to mention what damage it would do to your reputation, I don't know if you've heard this, but skydivers tend to be a bit on the superstitious side and any hint of bad karma around someone will drive them away from you... as a rigger the only thing you really have of any real value is the trust that your customers have in you... if you lose that, I don't care what training or cool tools or whatever you have, you lose that trust and you might as well get a job packing parachutes for the new G.I. Joe paratrooper doll....

just my 2 cents

[masterrig 1]

I whole-heartedly agree with you! No rigger, may just put his seal on any pin if he didn't do the work and I'm not saying he 'legally' can. I surely would not put my seal on the pin of a parachute, harness-container that I did not fully inspect and re-pack. I was the 'victim' in a situation where I did in fact inspect and re-pack a reserve parachute, harness-container and the seal got broken at a later date. Someone, took the liberty of putting another rigger's seal on the pin. The rig was taken to a different rigger for inspection and re-pack. That rigger wrote a letter to the FAA charging me with 'Pencil-Packing'! Yes, the FAA, DOES ask some pointed questions! The name of the game is CYA! I'm not going to do anything outside of the FAR's in regard to my 'ticket' I worked too damned hard for it! Yeah, in the 'old' days, when the sport was new, a lot of things were done, but, we've grown and times have changed.

Chuck