Black Jack or Flick?

[RPetrie 0]

Was just wanting to get some input on a canopy choice. What does everyone think about these canopies? Why do you like one over the other? What are advantages of either one of these canopies...any info will help...thx.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

I'm under the impression that these two canopies have a lot more in common than they are different. In other words, they are both good products and you won't go wrong with either one. Go with the one which gives you the better price and/or the one which has the size you want. But they are (at least this is the impression I have) almost identical in design and performance.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

But they are (at least this is the impression I have) almost identical in design and performance.

I'd have to say that's not my impression at all. "Almost identical in design" is a pretty strong statement.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[DexterBase 1]

How do the glide angles (and trim) compare?

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

"Almost identical in design" is a pretty strong statement.

Okay I was wrong for saying this without better knowledge of the actual nitty-gritty detailed designs of the two canopies and I am guilty of having this "impression" of having similar designs based on conversations I've had with other FLiK and Black Jack pilots. After all BASE is nothing more than a recreational sport to me. I do not eat, breath and dream of BASE jumping 24/7 as some other people do. It's a lot of fun to huck myself off of certain fixed objects, but it is not my life.

Anyway, am I wrong for saying that both of these canopies are excellent products and that someone wouldn't go wrong with either one of these canopies? If I am, then maybe I should stop listening to many many people in the BASE world, because that is the impression I've been given about these two canopies. They are both very good canopies.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[NickDG 23]

In my tongue in cheek opinion.

There is nothing inherently (dangerously) wrong with currently manufactured BASE canopies . . .

There is something inherently (dangerously) wrong with currently manufactured BASE jumpers . . .

NickD BASE 194

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

How do the glide angles (and trim) compare?

In my opinion, the Flik has a slightly better glide angle, and noticeably flatter trim.

That means that when unvented, the Ace (i.e. unvented Blackjack) has significantly cleaner inflation than the (unvented) Flik.

The control line attachment points for both canopies have changed over time, and I think that number of control lines (4 or 5) is a selectable option on the Flik. Blackjacks, to my knowledge, only come in a 5 line version. But since the Flik/FOX airfoil was originally designed as a 4 line canopy and the Ace/Blackjack airfoil was originally designed as a 5 line canopy, that probably makes sense.

The Blackjack has significantly longer lines than the Flik (since the previous [Mojo/FOX] generation, the manufacturers moved in opposite directions on line length, with CR going with longer lines and BR/Apex going with shorter lines). This doesn't appear to translate into anything meaningful in terms of canopy flight or openings, but I mention it because in my opinion it's much easier to do a good McConkey with the Flik than the Ace/BJ (because it's easier to maintain line tension with the shorter lines).

edit to add: The BJ/Ace has a noticeably higher top speed, a characteristic that I personally find quite useful, but which I know some other jumpers don't like.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

I prefer the slider down/off openings on the Blackjack. If I were going to be doing very low freefalls (sub 200'), I'd probably go with the BJ over the Flik for that reason. Above 200' (freefall) I think it's close enough that you ought to select the canopy based on other criteria.

In my opinion the unvented Flik has noticeably worse openings than the Ace (unvented Blackjack). So be sure you are comparing the vented versions of the canopy (Flik vtec/Blackjack). If you are going with an unvented canopy, I'd go with the Ace for sure. But I'm going to assume you're considering the vented versions of both airfoils.

I think the 5 control line version of the Flik is too swoopy, and the toggle stroke seems very short. It's hard to sink in, because the difference between a tight sink and a stall is pretty short (in terms of toggle stroke). If you are going to want to do steep accuracy approaches into tight landing areas, I'd either go with the Blackjack, or get a 4 line Flik, but I'd recommend not going with the 5 control line variation of the Flik.

I like the ZP foreskin option on the BJ/Ace quite a bit better than the full ZP topskin on the Flik. I think it's much easier to pack neatly (and hence get better results at opening). If you want ZP on the topskin (primarily for long term durability and maintenance of flare in the 250+ jumps range), I'd go with the BJ over the Flik.

The Flik appears to have slightly better glide ratio. If you are planning on going low and trying to reach remote landing areas regularly, I'd consider the Flik for this reason. The difference isn't huge, though, so if this is your deciding criteria, I'd be surprised.

The BJ has a higher top speed. This can be useful when penetrating wind. Some people don't like it, as they prefer a slower canopy overall after popping the toggles. I prefer to have the speed available when I want it, but you'll have to make your own decisions.

Overall? I'd say I prefer the BJ, but that's likely as a result of having spent far more time under it.

Can you tell us what caused you to narrow your search to these 2 canopies (and rule out, for example, Troll MDV or Rock Dragon)?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[RPetrie 0]

Thanks for the info everyone, and I did look into the other base canopies on the market I just happened to be the most impressed with these two. I'm pretty sure I am going to get the black jack after talking to multiple people who have flown both canopies, just wanted to get a few more opinions from some more seasoned vets. And since we have people reading.
-Does anyone have opinions on freefalling 250' with a 46"A/V pilot chute, and is there a significant difference in deployement time between standard and vented PC's.
Thanks again

[hookitt 1]

I concur with the Black Jack preference.

I use a 46 AV at 250 on a fairly regular basis. It's connected to a Black Jack 260. I've used it at 210 several times and the results are very positive.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto

[Bryguy1224 12]

I have to agree with tom on this one also. I currently have a Flik and I have found it a bit challenging to try and get a nice sink without feeling it start to stall on me. I have the 5 line mod. I have jumped a blackjack and was very impressed. I only have a couple jumps with one, but it the short time I flew it, I found it to be a better all around canopy than my flik. that's why I ordered one.

Ody

[RPetrie 0]

Ody, if you didn't notice this is BK numnuts...just wanted to say stay safe over there and keep in touch.

P.S Watch out for those long delays of the stack.

[vid666 0]

I have NOT jumped a BJ, but I did jump a FUK ( I mean FLIK ) 5 line, and loaded a 293 @ .69 - on the last jump I made with that canopy I made sure to play with stall points and see if I can just sink the canopy in - I felt rather comfortable doing that. I also have flown a Troll 265 MDV 5 line on the same day and I would say by comparison I felt that the Flik was a bit slower....

just another opinion ...

[Bryguy1224 12]

I know douche bag. PM your number again. I'll give oyu a call when I get a chance. These 12 hour 6 day a week shit is killing me. so is the 115 degree weather

[peterk 0]

Blackjack with the ZeroP composite...

---------------
Peter
BASE - The Ultimate Victimless Crime

[John_Scher 0]

Quote

Was just wanting to get some input on a canopy choice. What does everyone think about these canopies? Why do you like one over the other? What are advantages of either one of these canopies...any info will help...thx.

I have less than 40 Base jumps (1700 sky dives) so any comments I make are from this limited standpoint.

I have made approximately 30 jumps on an ACE 260 @ 0.74 and the rest on a BJ 280/ZP @ 0.69. The Ace is excellent but I wanted to upsize and at the same time get vents. The BJ @ 0.69 has sufficient forward speed but sinking it in nil winds is impossible and it severely lacks flare power. All of my jumps have been slider off and I think the problem is I'm not getting deep enough into the control stroke as my arms are too short for this size canopy. Either this or the vents are allowing too much outflow. I must admit I'm quite worried about it. I contacted Asylum and they authorised me to reduce the lower brake line length by two inches ie raise the toggle by two inches. I have not had a chance to jump this configuration but will advise accordingly. I have in the past jumped quite a few other large canopies (mainly skydiving canopies) and must say I am very impressed with the quality, glide and general performance of both the Ace and BJ. I just hope I can get this sink/flare thing sorted out.

[leroydb 0]

the black jack, very beefy, takes a licking and keeps on ticking

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[TomAiello 26]

John,

Toggle location ought to be customized (just as brake setting) for each jumper/canopy combination.

For example, I am a short fat guy, so in order to get the bottom end of the control stroke on a Mojo 310, I once had to shorten the toggle more than 12 inches.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[manship 0]

Quote

The BJ @ 0.69 has sufficient forward speed but sinking it in nil winds is impossible and it severely lacks flare power.

Your problem with sinking has not been the case with me at all, though I load my BJ at about .70 or
.71. I suspect the raising of the toggles will help you out tremendously.

I can not only sink my BJ well, but can actually fly (or controlled slide if you must) it backwards.

==========================================

I didn't invent skydiving, but I jumped with the guys who did.

[John_Scher 0]

Tom & Manship,

Thank you for the advice

[DexterBase 1]

Quote

...I am a short fat guy...

I don't know about that. Who else has noticed Tom looking all fit and trim lately?

[tfelber 0]

Quote

I can not only sink my BJ well, but can actually fly (or controlled slide if you must) it backwards

I've done several skydives with the Flik and experienced the same thing. I felt very confident with the backwards movement and it seemed to have quite a bit of speed going backwards.

I have stalled other skydiving canopies and when you look up the canopy is sort of collapsing above you. That is what I relate to as a stall. However the Flik was moving backwards while retaining its' shape (from beneath anyway) and the braked turns seemed very tight and responsive.

I have not jumped any BASE canopies except the Fox and the Flik both vented so I can't comment on the BJ.

[mel-t 0]

Quote

Quote

.

I can not only sink my BJ well, but can actually fly (or controlled slide if you must) it backwards.

I jump a flik 242 v-tec covers 5 ucl now!
I love it!

[leroydb 0]

Do you have any experiance with jumping a BJ with the new "moved"
line mod?

One has told me it makes terminal jumps with it suck (spank factor)... what are your thoughts, anyone?

Le Roy

Leroy


..I knew I was an unwanted baby when I saw my bath toys were a toaster and a radio...

[hookitt 1]

It's fine.

If you are getting spanked, go back to the basics of how a parachute opens. Pack for the jump. If you pack for a 4 second delay, and take 15 seconds, expect an abrubt opening. One pack job, does not fit all.

I have jumped my Black Jack well over 20 seconds and even used a 38 inch pilot chute a few times. It was fast but by no means was it brutal.

My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto