base736 0 #1 May 25, 2005 I've done my best to hide it for years, but I'm finally ready to admit it... I have problems standing it up. I fly a Fox 245 VTec (no valves) loaded at very nearly 0.7:1. My landing areas tend to be at 3,000-4,000 feet MSL in dry air. I consider myself a good 7-cell canopy pilot -- I've been jumping this setup for better than 80 jumps (over four years), and competed in CRW for a couple of years before I started into BASE. In moderate (say, coming up on 5 mph) and better winds, I can stand up my landings without a problem, consistently. I can sink it in, I can come in out of a turn... It's all good. No wind, though, and I'm useless -- I either come skidding in on my hands and knees (three cheers for the guy who invented gloves and armour, by the way) or drop out of the sky unceremoniously to a nearly ankle-breaking stop. ... Which seems odd to me, since I should (in theory) be able to execute the same landing I do in higher winds, and walk it out. But anyway... I was hoping somebody here could offer a little advice on landing this sort of configuration in no winds. Failing that, perhaps you might enjoy a chuckle at my expense? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zennie 0 #2 May 25, 2005 I was taught pretty early on that stand-up landings in the BASE environment can be somewhat dicey. You can easily land on uneven ground, hit a rock or divot and twist the heck out of your ankle. Plus it's a great excuse for ugly landings... "Hey man, I'm just being SAFE!" - Z "Always be yourself... unless you suck." - Joss Whedon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
basehoundsam 0 #3 May 25, 2005 Demo another canopy...... and even in a larger size......... I own 3 seperate sized canopies for "Optimal" landings(which don't exist always!!). I personally like Daggers...... they feel a bit sexy(speedy)..... but land with the strongest flare of all.(just my .02) Jay Epstein Ramirez www.adrenalineexploits.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JaapSuter 0 #4 May 25, 2005 I'm assuming you did, but I'll ask anyway; did you tune the position of your toggles? Have you done any rear riser landings in zero winds? Oddly enough I have found rear riser landings to be softer than some of my flared landings, until I properly tuned my toggle setting. I'm not sure what that means, but it surprised me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Faber 0 #5 May 25, 2005 did youconsidder the 5th line mod on your fox? i didnt liked it but it gives you a more powerfull flare. If you dont want that then try "hitting the brakes" at the last moment(dont hook in),and you might even get a slight swoop.. Ive had the same problem on my Fox but after practice im getting better.. And as Blair said its safe to PLF(when your foot aint getting caught or snag somthing) Stay safe Stefan Faber Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PerFlare 0 #6 May 25, 2005 Hi, I have the same problem. I have about 400 jumps on my v-tec without valves ... I actually send in back after the 20-30 first jumps on it, but it is a feature *smile* Zero winds and landing on payment, ouch! You can ad a extra breakline or the better alternative, put valves in it. Apex and other manufactures retrofit valves. I have more rigs and my v-tec is old so for me it is questionable if it is worth it but if you have a "newer" canopy ... get the money and do it PerFlare Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FIREFLYR 0 #7 May 25, 2005 I've made 54 BASE jumps and stood up all but 3. I have short arms (im 5'8") and attatch mt toggles about 6"up the lines from where suggesyed. so far so good. -J"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest" "There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bryguy1224 12 #8 May 25, 2005 Jamie, That's because you got the Mojo flowing. Hope you have a good time in Europe, I plan on making the trip next year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FIREFLYR 0 #9 May 25, 2005 I did my first BASE jump a year ago today. It's been an interesting year huh Ody? Got the Black Jack flowing too now I'll make a few for you this Mem day. ~J"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest" "There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bryguy1224 12 #10 May 25, 2005 I still remember " I'm Rick James Bitch" How about that top shelf "El Presidente' Margarita. Its only lunch time. I got a black jack also. Havn't jumped it yet. Ill get around to it come december when I get back. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Treejumps 0 #11 May 25, 2005 At 250#, and upwards of 1:1 on my Fox 285, and only slightly better on my Mojo 310, I can standaup my landings about half of the time, but I only even try if the lz is clean and I know I have a good setup. Its just not worth the risk. Remember, you don't have to stand up, you just have to (be able) get up. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SafetyNate 0 #12 May 25, 2005 Ody, I have your black jack! It lands great. You have done enough for us back home, you didnt have to go and give me your brand new Black Jack. I was surprised how strong it was, the barb wire only put six small holes in it when I ripped it off the fence. Safety Nate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bryguy1224 12 #13 May 25, 2005 just doing what I can to help spread democracy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites outrager 6 #14 May 25, 2005 QuoteI fly a Fox 245 VTec (no valves) loaded at very nearly 0.7:1. My landing areas tend to be at 3,000-4,000 feet MSL in dry air. That explains it VTec without valves has a very poor flare, compared to a regular valved or non-vtec canopy. It sinks down better, but the price for that is inferior glide and flare. I put V-Tec on one of my older Foxes, and the flare has suffered dramaticaly (i could directly compare it to my second non-vtec Fox). bsbd! Yuri. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freakboy066 0 #15 May 25, 2005 It sounds like to me that you may have to take your toggle position up higher so that the tail comes down farther for flare.Have you had someone video your landings in these conditions and others.Video is a wonderful tool that should always be utilized.Sounds like you just need to readjust your toggle setting,or just take a rap.Hope this helps.http://freakboy066.tripod.com/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnnyUtah 0 #16 May 25, 2005 QuoteI still remember " I'm Rick James Bitch" How about that top shelf "El Presidente' Margarita. Its only lunch time. I got a black jack also. Havn't jumped it yet. Ill get around to it come december when I get back. Ha ha that brings back good memories. That sure was a fun BASE Camp we had. Its good to see your still alive Bryan. When you coming home? Were going flickin when you do.Have Fun, Don't Die! Johnny Utah My Website email:johnny@johnnyutah.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ojf1982 0 #17 May 25, 2005 Bryan, are you back from Iraq?The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BASE813 0 #18 May 25, 2005 I have found that most people with an unvalved canopy have problems standing it up in fast conditions.............. I thought this might be something to do with the air spilling from the vents on flaring and loosing a bit of performance............ but maybe my thinking is wrong? Edit to add: I see someone else posted the same thought............. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bryguy1224 12 #19 May 26, 2005 No I'm still stuck in this shit hole of a country. I'll be home around Thanksgiving time. Probobly not soon enough for the turkey boogie. The family might get a little pissed if I get home and leave the next day to go BASE jump in Utah. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites chadkal 0 #20 May 26, 2005 I have an mdv troll, this canopy is also hard to stand up with no wind, it just seems to run out of flare long before I have stoped. I have actually flaredas far down as I could, then grabed both toggles in one hand, and reached back up for a handful of lines to flare some more. But with a little bit of wind it lands great -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BASE813 0 #21 May 26, 2005 mmmm............. my mdv lands just fine... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #22 May 26, 2005 QuoteI have actually flaredas far down as I could, then grabed both toggles in one hand, and reached back up for a handful of lines to flare some more. I'd say you have the toggles set wrong. Have you tried moving them up the lines? Toggle placement, like brake settings and tailgate location, ought to be customized for each jumper/canopy combination.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Bryguy1224 12 #23 May 26, 2005 If you grind up a couple viagra and mix it in with your pack job your canopy will have no problem standing you up erect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites John_Scher 0 #24 May 26, 2005 Toggle placement, like brake settings and tailgate location, ought to be customized for each jumper/canopy combination. Tom, Is it not true that moving the toggles up more than two or so inches on a slider up configuration will prevent the canopy from flying on full drive as the toggles will hit the guide ring and the tail will be deflected downards? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SafetyNate 0 #12 May 25, 2005 Ody, I have your black jack! It lands great. You have done enough for us back home, you didnt have to go and give me your brand new Black Jack. I was surprised how strong it was, the barb wire only put six small holes in it when I ripped it off the fence. Safety Nate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bryguy1224 12 #13 May 25, 2005 just doing what I can to help spread democracy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
outrager 6 #14 May 25, 2005 QuoteI fly a Fox 245 VTec (no valves) loaded at very nearly 0.7:1. My landing areas tend to be at 3,000-4,000 feet MSL in dry air. That explains it VTec without valves has a very poor flare, compared to a regular valved or non-vtec canopy. It sinks down better, but the price for that is inferior glide and flare. I put V-Tec on one of my older Foxes, and the flare has suffered dramaticaly (i could directly compare it to my second non-vtec Fox). bsbd! Yuri. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freakboy066 0 #15 May 25, 2005 It sounds like to me that you may have to take your toggle position up higher so that the tail comes down farther for flare.Have you had someone video your landings in these conditions and others.Video is a wonderful tool that should always be utilized.Sounds like you just need to readjust your toggle setting,or just take a rap.Hope this helps.http://freakboy066.tripod.com/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnnyUtah 0 #16 May 25, 2005 QuoteI still remember " I'm Rick James Bitch" How about that top shelf "El Presidente' Margarita. Its only lunch time. I got a black jack also. Havn't jumped it yet. Ill get around to it come december when I get back. Ha ha that brings back good memories. That sure was a fun BASE Camp we had. Its good to see your still alive Bryan. When you coming home? Were going flickin when you do.Have Fun, Don't Die! Johnny Utah My Website email:johnny@johnnyutah.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ojf1982 0 #17 May 25, 2005 Bryan, are you back from Iraq?The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over - Hunter S. Thompson Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BASE813 0 #18 May 25, 2005 I have found that most people with an unvalved canopy have problems standing it up in fast conditions.............. I thought this might be something to do with the air spilling from the vents on flaring and loosing a bit of performance............ but maybe my thinking is wrong? Edit to add: I see someone else posted the same thought............. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bryguy1224 12 #19 May 26, 2005 No I'm still stuck in this shit hole of a country. I'll be home around Thanksgiving time. Probobly not soon enough for the turkey boogie. The family might get a little pissed if I get home and leave the next day to go BASE jump in Utah. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chadkal 0 #20 May 26, 2005 I have an mdv troll, this canopy is also hard to stand up with no wind, it just seems to run out of flare long before I have stoped. I have actually flaredas far down as I could, then grabed both toggles in one hand, and reached back up for a handful of lines to flare some more. But with a little bit of wind it lands great -------------------------------------------------- I am a greek midget Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BASE813 0 #21 May 26, 2005 mmmm............. my mdv lands just fine... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #22 May 26, 2005 QuoteI have actually flaredas far down as I could, then grabed both toggles in one hand, and reached back up for a handful of lines to flare some more. I'd say you have the toggles set wrong. Have you tried moving them up the lines? Toggle placement, like brake settings and tailgate location, ought to be customized for each jumper/canopy combination.-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bryguy1224 12 #23 May 26, 2005 If you grind up a couple viagra and mix it in with your pack job your canopy will have no problem standing you up erect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John_Scher 0 #24 May 26, 2005 Toggle placement, like brake settings and tailgate location, ought to be customized for each jumper/canopy combination. Tom, Is it not true that moving the toggles up more than two or so inches on a slider up configuration will prevent the canopy from flying on full drive as the toggles will hit the guide ring and the tail will be deflected downards? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gus 1 #25 May 26, 2005 QuoteIs it not true that moving the toggles up more than two or so inches on a slider up configuration will prevent the canopy from flying on full drive as the toggles will hit the guide ring and the tail will be deflected downards? Surely that depends on how much slack there is already in the braklines, before you move the toggles? GusOutpatientsOnline.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites