Tailgate and line-overs

[JaapSuter 0]

Does anybody know of any documented line-overs on tailgated canopied that did not self-clear?

All video I have seen of line-overs on tailgated canopies have been self clearing.

In no way does this message or the resulting discussion diminish the usefulness of the LRM. I'm just curious.

[Cleatus 0]

Hey, what's the worst that can happen?

[JesseP 0]

It should diminish the use of LRM. It is largely outdated, unneccessary and contains a plethora of inherent problems. You will find that there are very, very few cases of a tailgated line over that did not self clear (or that was successfully cleared and landed via LRM), however almost everyone will call you silly for choosing not to use the line mod when using a tailgate. Go figure.

[Han-Solo 0]

i've witnessed one example of this. it wasn't documented though. the line mod came in handy.

[JaapSuter 0]

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It should diminish the use of LRM. It is largely outdated, unneccessary and contains a plethora of inherent problems.

The problems I see are:

A bigger need for multiple brake settings.

You might accidentally lose a toggle and have to land on rear-risers even when you don't have a line-over.

Different flare and brake characteristics.

Anything else I'm missing?

I personally think these points are moot. You would still need different brake settings to deal with different altitudes and wind conditions (at least I do). Landing on rear risers without having a line over should be okay for most landing areas. If you can't land somewhere on rear risers, maybe you shouldn't jump there? Having different flare and brake characteristics is something easily learned on LRM-skydives and easier objects.

Having said that, given your experience you would certainly be more qualified to comment on this.

[JesseP 0]

It's probably more a matter of opinion and priorities than experience.

The main problem with the LRM is changing it over when doing slider up/down jumps. This is an unnecessary complication that if done wrong or forgotten about can be disastrous. Yes, it shouldn't be done wrong in the first place but we all know it can happen. This is the main problem I see, and for me is far from moot.

Another is dropped toggles. I may see this as a bigger problem than you because I would find it very undesirable to have to rear-riser into some of the landing areas I frequent if I drop a toggle when blowing the brakes for some reason.

Another is the increased hassle of using it. I don't particularly like the flight characteristics (but you are right, this would be easily overcome if I used it more). I like having the brakes routed the same on every jump. I hate messing around with tangled brake lines during packing.

Brake settings have little to do with it. I don't use LRM and have three settings.

Because of this, I see the use of the LRM as illogical. If you put any serious work into trying to track down slider down, tailgated line-overs that were cleared by the LRM you will not find more than a few (if any). That is within a sample range of however many tens of thousand jumps on this configuration have been done. Thus, the minute risk is justified due to the fact that I am also eliminating the problems I mentioned above.

Most people still see it as essential. I don't get it.

I always use a tailgate and have a hook knife.

Edited to add:

Some people could argue that by essentially saying that you will always use a tailgate to control the fact that you may not always re-route your brakes, you are merely "swapping the witch for the bitch". This has some merit, but I believe my basis is still sound.

Jumping slider-down without a tailgate will NOT AUTOMATICALLY result in a line-over. Jumping slider-up without the brake lines routed through the slider and keeper rings will DEFINITELY be bad.

We all make our choices.

[TomAiello 26]

I've got good video of a tailgated lineover. Are you using line release toggles of some kind? Or a hook knife?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[GaryP 0]

Most (nearly all) jumpers are told to pack with the LRM when going slider down/off, yet I've not been witness to much discussion or training over it's actual use.

Put another way - I think there's many ppl who jump with this option yet are not really competent or dialled-in to an emergeny procedure or plan for dealing with a line-over with the LRM, for example at around 100' or under.

Given that lineovers are now extremely rare with the tailgate being commonplace, most newer jumpers are not given the chance to see it's use in action and I think that if faced with the rare event of a lineover in the SL-down environment, there wouldn't be much altitude to deal with it anyway - especially in the sub-200' environment and with some of the sites Jesse and others regularly frequent.

I do use the LRM but I know that there's many times I'm doing a jump that the altitude or obstacles render the LRM pretty useless.

Just a thought.

g.

"Altitude is birthright to any individual who seeks it"

.

[TomAiello 26]

Wouldn't it be better to encourage practicing (in a relatively safe environment, before you have to do it for real) the use of this (or any) safety feature, rather than eliminate it?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JesseP 0]

Yes. I think people should be introduced to the LRM, encouraged to use it for their initial jumps and be made aware of its limitations and potential problems.

Then they can make their own decision.

[JaapSuter 0]

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I've got good video of a tailgated lineover.

Is there any possibility you could upload this somewhere with the jumpers permission?

Was this line-over cleared by the LRM and landed succesfully?

And out of curiousity, was there any follow up speculation on the cause of the line-over besides just having bad luck? Maybe contributions from the winds or a hasty packjob?

Thanks,

Jaap

[BASE813 0]

In my first year as a jumper I questioned the need for the LRM, I know some people are so confident with the TG that they dont jump with the LRM.

My thoughts were if you are not likely to get a LO then surely not having the LRM would be more benifical for a break fire (which is probably more common). After discussion with many and much more experienced jumpers I decided against jumping without the LRM.

I dont have a problem landing on rears should I have a breakfire, and if I have a lineover on a SD jump even with the TG (as has happened) then surely popping and dropping is quicker than getting a hook knife and cutting.

If I have a LO SD then generally I am opening (or used to) at anything from 50ft to 200ft and I would rather pop and drop from these altitudes than try and cut and control - if you are worried about landing on rears, then you should practice some more, landing on rear risers should never be an issue you cant deal with.

I would rather use a TG and LRM as 2 cures of a problem (although the TG is not exaclty a cure of LO but of Tail Inversion) are going to be better than only 1...........

IMHO

[TomAiello 26]

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...for a break fire (which is probably more common).

Have you seen premature brake releases on cloth stub toggles? I've only seen it happen with pin toggles.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

I accidentally lost a toggle this weekend. I was doing a rear-floater. As I reached for my rear-risers to turn around my left thumb dissapeared into the big-grab toggle. When I pulled down to fly backwards the toggle came off. This happened quickly and it didn't register until I turned away, let go of my risers and tried grabbing my toggles. The left one was gone.

I'll have to study where I'm grabbing my risers to avoid this in the future. I think I need to grab a little higher. Interesting to note that it was the big-grab-ness of the toggles that allowed this to happen. Every advantage can have a disadvantage.

[NickDG 23]

I'm glad you weren't downtown trying to turn away from building after a bad opening . . .

While I've used them too can anyone tell me the point of big grab toggles? Are we becoming toggle grabbers in an emergency? When I saw the video of Slim hitting the cliff his releasing the toggles instead of rear riser turning himself away was a mistake, right? Or are we being taught that these days?

In the same vein I was watching the video from the Mexican big wall and not only is that LZ not small (try Angel Falls for small) what's up with all the front riser turn and burn-in approaches? Is there a disconnect occurring between flying high aspect ratio canopy at the DZ and flying low aspect ratio BASE canopies?

Did anyone read the current issue of SKYDIVING? There's an article where several "experienced" skydivers are whining their highly wing loaded low aspect ratio reserves are stalling early and landing them hard. These are 200 pound out the door slaves to fashion jumping 120 sq. ft. seven cell low aspect ratio reserves. Hello! Anybody home?

Are we seeing new BASE jumpers with the same idea? The first few generations in BASE usually had some low aspect ratio canopy time at the DZ prior to BASE. Now they don't, unless they seek it out. Sometimes their first "seven cell" is a reserve ride or a BASE jump. Anyone see that recent video clip on "Sport's Disasters"? A guy has a malfunction, does a cutaway to a good Raven and then he front riser turns himself in the ground breaking all kinds of bones. It was obvious it was the only way he knew how to land and he made no deference to what's over his head . . .

I'm confused . . . that "they" are so confused. And it doesn't bode well for the future.

NickD
BASE 194

[JaapSuter 0]

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I'm glad you weren't downtown trying to turn away from building after a bad opening...

I don't think I made it under the bridge (pending video) so at worst it would have made my landing a little trickier.

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Are we seeing new BASE jumpers with the same idea?

Welcome to a sport that is on its way to mainstream. I've been looking into sharkfucking recently. I hear it's even more dangerous than BASE and still underground. I expect it'll take at least five years before MTV catches on. Who's with me?

[pBASEtobe 0]

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I've been looking into sharkfucking recently. I hear it's even more dangerous than BASE and still underground. I expect it'll take at least five years before MTV catches on. Who's with me?

I guess I'm with ya. Although I've tried it a few times before when I was bored while underwater (my commercial diving days) I didn't like it that much. Maybe another go will change my mind!

[JesseP 0]

I think brake settings were a big issue in Slim's cliff strike.

I thought the same thing when I watched the Mexico video, that is a great landing area. I also wondered if that guy that hit wall at the end even set his brakes. It looked atrocious.

[NickDG 23]

That's kind of what I thought. With the brakes set very deep it makes rear riser flight dicey. . .

NickD
BASE 194

[nicknitro71 0]

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I've been looking into sharkfucking recently

Been there done that. If you are the giver use lots of lube; sharks' ass is rough If you are the taker you might have the time of your life

As for the big grab toggles this is not the first time I hear a similar incident. Are yours the really big ones? I have not seen your set up over the week-end.

Memento Audere Semper

903

[badenhop 0]

Hello,
That landing area is tough, really.
Certainly comparable to Angel Falls in size and access.
The outs are as forbidding, just sharper.
The altitude plays here, @ approx 4500 AMSL.
Everybody was coming in fast.
Especially the Jedi with the canopy from "those guys".
You know they jumped right out of a box and made a BASE swoop canopy!
Kids.
D obviously has lots of experience on the canopy.

AF88

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[TomAiello 26]

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...releasing the toggles instead of rear riser turning himself away was a mistake, right? Or are we being taught that these days?

I can't speak for everyone, but I'm teaching riser corrections to avoid imminent impact, followed by toggles (once no longer pointed at the object) to conserve altitude.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

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As for the big grab toggles this is not the first time I hear a similar incident. Are yours the really big ones? I have not seen your set up over the week-end.

I jump Vertigo Syko toggles. I really like them so far. The lines come in from the side. This makes it impossible to confuse your steering lines and stow them crossed.

I just put on my harness and tied the riser off to something. It turned out to be nearly impossible to do what I described above. It required too much force on the thumb. This leads me to believe that my toggle may have partially released before I reached up for it and that my rear-riser grab was just the last nudge to push it off.

I'm not sure what would have caused this release. I check if my toggles are still properly stowed when dressing up my risers, right before the first fold in the container.

Too little information and too much speculation I'm afraid. The bottom line is that if you use the LRM you need to be prepared to land on rear-risers.

[TomAiello 26]

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The bottom line is that if you use the LRM you need to be prepared to land on rear-risers.

Did you see Russel's ring-release riser system? It appears to be a good way to use LRM without the possibility of losing a toggle to a premature release. I've only put about 30 jumps on it so far, but my results have been good.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

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Did you see Russel's ring-release riser system?

I haven't. Can you explain how it works, how it differs from the WLO toggles and what's required to release the toggles?

Speaking of WLO's, does anybody use them on slider down jumps? Judging from the five skydives I've done with my WLO toggles -releasing them every time- I wouldn't be surprised if one could release their WLOs just as fast as one could unstow a toggle and throw it away.

An additional benefit is that the toggle remains on the riser, meaning there's only a clean line dissapearing, reducing the risk of entanglement. Although I'm not sure how much of a risk this actually is, I've been taught to throw the steering line away backwards and to the side.

It would also reduce the amount of rigging required when switching from slider down to slider up.

I'm talking about the Vertigo WLO toggles by the way, which I think are great. I haven't seen them from other manufacturers, but I have heard they require more steps to undo.

Mmmm, I'll have to put some more thought into this. Any showstoppers I'm overlooking?