Tailgate and line-overs

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

Speaking of WLO's, does anybody use them on slider down jumps?

I know that some people had trouble with the pins getting bent on slider down stuff, and I believe the manufacturer said they wouldn't recommend using them for slider down.

I'll let Russel post a description of his system.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

And while we're talking about line-overs anyway; I've never had one. Does anybody see any problems with packing one intentionally on a skydive using a base canopy with WLO toggles?

I suppose it could burn the topskin of my canopy, but other than that I don't see too many problems. Open plenty high. Be prepared for a spinning opening, potentially resulting in line-twist (which could make it impossible to use WLO), use the WLO, or worst case scenario use plan B, land safely, drink beer.

Any advice for how to best pack a line-over? I've talked to one experienced jumper who tried really hard to pack intentional line-overs at the Perrine in the pre-tailgate days, but she never managed to do it.

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

I know that some people had trouble with the pins getting bent on slider down stuff, and I believe the manufacturer said they wouldn't recommend using them for slider down.

That's exactly the kind of information I was hoping for. I guess that idea is off then. Thanks!

I'm surprised. The brake-loop is stowed almost at the bottom of the pin, not in the middle. It just goes to show how much force an opening exerts on the brake-settings.

Out of curiousity, does anybody agree that a WLO release can be just as fast and clean as a LRM release? Given that, isn't there a market for stronger pins?

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

Out of curiousity, does anybody agree that a WLO release can be just as fast and clean as a LRM release? Given that, isn't there a market for stronger pins?

Yes, and yes.

I suspect that one of the things that keeps the brake set is the friction between the line and the cloth stub, which is greatly reduced with a smooth metal pin.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[badenhop 0]

packing one intentionally = the anti-nugget

But I knew he was just kidding.

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[pBASEtobe 0]

Quote

I'll let Russel post a description of his system.

Ok, I’ll try not to make this too long.

First let me explain the intent of the idea. A while back I read about Faber’s accident landing rear risers and ending up with a broken leg. I then heard another one or two similar cases. So, I figured landing on rears was a bad thing. I didn’t know at the time that we should all practice this and be proficient at it. Then I thought to myself this would be very bad if it happened to me one day in the future if/when I do ground landings. My idea was to attempt to eliminate blowing a toggle on opening but still make it just as easy to clear a line over when doing slider down jumps. I talked to several people, a rigger and even to a BASE manufacturer and no one thought it would be a great idea for the masses but maybe a good idea for me.

Now I’ll do my best in trying to explain the setup. Essentially the keeper ring is permanently on the brake line and is cutaway each time the brake is unstowed. If you were to have a brake line blow on opening the toggle would get pulled up to the keeper ring and stay there. The moment you pull the toggle down you cutaway the keeper ring. This keeps with the idea of the LRM in the fact the even using these risers, if you have a lineover all you do is unstow the toggle, automatically cutting away the keeper ring, and toss it. The keeper ring is held in place just like the small ring on a 3-ring release system is. A white loop goes through the ring then through a grommet and then a bit of standard yellow cutaway cable goes through the white loop. One end of the yellow cutaway cable is sewn into the toggle but protrudes out the side and goes up, through the white loop, and the free end is inserted into a sleeve.

Maybe Tom could post a picture of the risers. He still has them. Tom’s graciously been the test jumper for me (20 slider down and 10 slider up so far) and he seems to think they work pretty well and that they may have their own little niche. I’ll let him comment on that.

There are downsides to this system. The biggest one I can think of is that it does make setting the brakes a little more complicated and takes a little bit more time.

That’s the best I can do in describing the setup. I’ve now gone through several revisions of this post and this is as good as it gets! If you’ve got questions about how they felt or functioned you’d have to ask Tom (sorry Tom) but in an attempt to keep Tom less busy if you have any questions about their design I can probably answer them.

It’s funny, now that I think I’m done doing slider down jumps this idea seems moot to me.

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

packing one intentionally = the anti-nugget
But I knew he was just kidding.

I'll embarrassingly admit that I wasn't entirely kidding.

The line-overs that I've seen happen on large canopies resulted in a slow enough spin that they wouldn't scare me that much. Just to stress; this would be done on a skydive, pulling around 6k.

Can you elaborate on why it is a bad idea?

Obviously I'm breaking something that isn't broken and therefore increasing risk. However, I'm pretty sure that my 20 practices jumps with intentional LRM brake-releases and WLO releases prepared me for last weekends accidental release. I can see a line-over is a whole different game than the minor inconvenience a brake-release should be, but if I can experience it first in controlled test-environment, I'll be better prepared when it happens in BASE.

That said, if somebody with more base jumps than I tells me it's an anti-nugget, that's a pretty good sign it's not a good idea.
Thanks!

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

Now I’ll do my best in trying to explain the setup...

Thanks Russel. I can't entirely envision the cut-away part, but I get the underlying idea.

Has Tom done any test jumps where he barely mated the velcro on the toggle so it would blow, testing how well the keeper would hold?

Mmm, I'm going to throw your description in a bowl. Then add the WLO's, stronger and thicker pins, some home-grown sewing and three pounds of sugar. Stir, mix, place in oven for twenty minutes, and we'll see what kind of crappy new invention I can come up with. That'll pass a windy weekend.

Thanks,

Jaap Suter

[pBASEtobe 0]

Quote

I can't entirely envision the cut-away part, but I get the underlying idea.

I knew I wouldn't do a good job.

Quote

Has Tom done any test jumps where he barely mated the velcro on the toggle so it would blow, testing how well the keeper would hold?

Yes he did. I deleted the e-mail he sent me saying what he did exactly. He tried a few things if I recall correctly. The one I do remember is that he used thin string of some type to artificially set the brake instead of putting it through the eye of the brake line. On opening the thin string broke and blew the toggle. He said it worked as designed and the toggle was held in place by the keeper ring which then cutaway when the toggle was released.

I'll shoot him an e-mail to see if he can post some pictures of the setup. Does Tom even own a digital camera?

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

I'll shoot him an e-mail to see if he can post some pictures of the setup. Does Tom even own a digital camera?

Thanks, but I don't want to be too much of a bother. I'll come check out the setup next time I'm in Twin Falls Tom, thanks!

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

Has Tom done any test jumps where he barely mated the velcro on the toggle so it would blow, testing how well the keeper would hold?

Several. So far I've done:

(a) don't mate the toggle at all
(b) set the brake above the keeper ring (so it slides off)
(c) use a thin strand of floss to simulate a brake setting, which broke at opening

If you have any other ideas for some tests to try, I'd love to do those, too.

I've also made several attempts at getting the ring to dislodge during opening, but so far I haven't found a way to get it to come loose.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[BASE813 0]

Quote

Quote

...for a break fire (which is probably more common).

Have you seen premature brake releases on cloth stub toggles? I've only seen it happen with pin toggles.

Yes I have seen 2 brake fires with the cloth stub toggles (one from 400ft Freefall 2 sec delay and one from a 225ft freefall 1 sec delay). Not sure what the end result of investigation was. There was no injury from these.

[K763 0]

Hi Jaap...

If you do decide to pack yourself an intentional line over, please make sure you have a belly-mount reserve as well as your normal reserve. This is a requirement by USPA for any intentional cut-aways, and if you don't do this and the dz gets wind of it, they could ground you or worse. Intentional cutaways have their place in the scheme of things; just make sure you've covered all the safety aspects to ensure your survival. We want you to live!

That being said...if you want to pack a line over, what step of the packjob would you skip or even reverse? (This is a test...)

Peace, and BE SAFE!
Karen

[NickDG 23]

>>The altitude plays here, @ approx 4500 AMSL<<

Thanks, Avery, that's a fact I didn't realize, but wouldn't that call for "larger" BASE canopies and better steep approach skills? I kind of giggle when I see "Go Fast" on a BASE canopy when I know we'd be better off with, "Go Slow . . ."

NickD BASE 194

[badenhop 0]

Hello,
Yes indeed.
I'm a big fan of Mojo 260's.
I jumped the Ace 220 once @ EG,
then after I got up off my butt I put it away.
D's approach was different........
Avery
EG12

==================================

I've got all I need, Jesus and gravity. Dolly Parton

http://www.AveryBadenhop.com

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

If you do decide to pack yourself an intentional line over, please make sure you have a belly-mount reserve as well as your normal reserve. This is a requirement by USPA for any intentional cut-aways

Good thing I live in Canada.

Seriously though, I've used the bellymount before when taking my base-container and -canopy for some skydives. I see no reason not to use it on this one either.

Quote

Intentional cutaways have their place in the scheme of things;

I agree, but this wouldn't be an intentional cutaway. Am I grosly overrating the effectiveness of WLO toggles here? I would have figured that my chances of just clearing the line-over with WLO and then landing on risers would be very big. Is that not so?

Quote

That being said...if you want to pack a line over, what step of the packjob would you skip or even reverse? (This is a test...)

Mmm, good question. I figured I would take the steering line, wrap it arond the top of the canopy before pulling it down back to the risers to stow them. This will distort the packjob but I think not enough to cause a problem. I would still do a line-continuity check if that's what you're referring to. I only want my steering line to go over, not my C or D lines. From your post it seems like there is a more obvious or easier way to pack a line-over that I am overlooking. Can you elaborate?

Thanks,

Jaap Suter

[pBASEtobe 0]

Quote

Seriously though, I've used the bellymount before when taking my base-container and -canopy for some skydives. I see no reason not to use it on this one either.

Does this mean I need to return your extra rings back to you? They're still on my harness.

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

Does this mean I need to return your extra rings back to you? They're still on my harness.

Yeah, we forgot about those when I was in LA. My fault. Can you send them back? No hurry.

[TomAiello 26]

Photos of the ring-release riser system are here.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

Quote

Photos of the ring-release riser system are here.

Thanks Tom!

Do you trust its hold-strength on opening-shock well enough that you would dare using it on slider-up jumps? If one would use flat toggles (as opposed to big-grabs) you could release the toggles and then punch them through the slider-grommets on a line-over.

Substantially slower than WLOs, but an interesting concept, and maybe safer and faster than hookknifing the line.

[pBASEtobe 0]

Quote

Photos of the ring-release riser system are here.

Thanks for posting those Tom!

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

Do you trust its hold-strength on opening-shock well enough that you would dare using it on slider-up jumps?

I have used it on around 10 slider up jumps. I'll do some more.

I'm not sure about punching the toggle through the slider. I was more thinking that it might work well in conjunction with WLO's.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com