Question about riser/toggle grips

[MWGemini 0]

For the last 20-30 jumps or so, I've been practicing getting my hands into my toggles as quickly as possible during opening. I hope to begin BASE jumping in a few years, and I'm trying to build the muscle memory and reaction time that I know I will need. I am now able to pretty consistently have the toggles out and down before the slider comes halfway down. Granted, I jump a Spectre, with a reputation for slow openings, but I've got to start somewhere.

That being said, I had a thought yesterday that maybe I am doing more harm than good by practicing the way I am. I've read (and heard stories) that it is often better to go for risers in the event of a 180. Personally, I have always grabbed my toggles from the outside, with fingers going in towards the center. I'm now considering the merits of reaching for toggles from the inside, with fingers pointing out. This way, your hands are through the toggles, and also on the risers. If risers are needed for obstacle avoidance, your hands are already there, you just squeeze and pull down whichever riser is necessary. If toggles are needed, your hands are already in them, you just pull down without squeezing hard enough to grab the riser.

Does anyone else do this (reach from inside towards outside)? Can anyone see any flaws in my logic, or provide suggestions?

Thanks,

Mike

[Bryguy1224 12]

I was taught start with risers and then move to toggles. I personally always go for toggles. For a few reasons.
1. If you go to risers you will sink out fast. If over a taulus you might sink right into it.
2. The turn is faster with toggle imput and you can turn a 180 with very little altitude loss.
3. Overall I feel that there is more control with toggles of risers.

As for coming from the inside out to grab toggles and riser, I can never see myself doing that. It seems more challenging , unnatural, and very uncomfertable. Hope it helps.

Bryan

[JaapSuter 0]

Interesting thoughts...

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If toggles are needed, your hands are already in them, you just pull down without squeezing hard enough to grab the riser.

At this point though, if you want to clear the toggle away from the riser completely, you have to pull your hand backwards with an open hand, correct? That leaves the potential for the toggle slipping out of your hands and losing them, especially if you have big-grab toggles.

Granted, I never actually tried what you're suggesting here, and I'm sure going to have a look at it on my next skydive. Just rehearsing it my head though, it doesn't feel right.

I'd rather grab the risers above the toggles if necessary, and then transfer to toggles after that. Once your heading is facing away from the object, unless you're doing ultra-low or super technical objects, you have plenty of time to let go of the risers and make sure you grab the toggles correctly. Big-grab toggles make this even easier, although I'm personally beginning to believe this advantage is not worth it.

[JaapSuter 0]

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I personally always go for toggles

I'll run the risk of opening up the old toggles versus risers debate, so please split this thread if necessary Tom.
Have you seen Slim's video? How much effort did you put into your deep brake settings? Do you have several ones for different wind configurations?

Apologies if this sounds judgemental. After having practiced both styles, seeing Slim's video and realizing that only perfect brake-settings are good enough to give toggles any potential, I was easily converted to a riser guy.

Even with perfect brake-settings, it takes a skilled canopy pilot to minimize the forward surge when popping the brakes, especially in a high stress situation. Add to that the potential for missing your toggles. If that can happen to an experienced jumper like Slim, it can certainly happen to me.

Here is another video and thread from a guy who hit a cliff after going for toggles. In that same thread he mentions that he would go for risers in the future.

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If over a taulus you might sink right into it.

True, but I'd rather hit only the ground, than hit the object followed by the ground. I wonder if landing a lightly loaded semi-stalled base canopy at the base of a rock is really that deadly. I can't judge this for sure, but I have a feeling that with enough body armour, a solid PLF, a slight incline and a certain amount of luck, you could walk away with only a few broken bones.

[rendezvous 0]

ok ! I only have a handful of BASE jumps so take this with some skeptisism. One of the reasons you want to go for rear risers is that you want to avoid wasting time trying to get into a toggle and unstow it. If you really intend to go for the rear risers why then aim for those little loops when you have the whole riser infront of you. Also, what if in trying to grab the rear risers through the toggle loop you accidentally unstow one toggle. Now you have complicated things. If you are going for toggles it means you have assessed the situation and already decided that you have enough time on hand to grab the toggles. I would keep the procedure simple and robust. Go for the riser where ever it's the quickest to grab it. If all is well go for the toggle.

[MWGemini 0]

I'll see if I can get a friend to video the grip I'm suggesting (we should be able to demonstrate it on our hanging harness, but maybe not). Had a brief talk with Jaap a little while ago, and I think I may not have been clear enough in my initial explanation.

I can't comment on the toggles vs risers debate. I know there are (arguably) certain situations where one is better than the other, or vice versa. If practiced enough, doing it the way I am picturing won't waste any additional time.

I did think of something new, however. If the riser somehow had a half twist in it (ninety degrees), and the toggle is mounted on the outer side (rather than on the back, as they are now), the would allow for a MUCH easier grab of the toggle and riser simultaneously, with less possibility of missing the toggle loop. especially with big grab toggles. If this doesn't make sense, I'll try to make it more clear either with video or with a better explanation.

Thanks,

Mike

[freakboy066 0]

Just remember always go for rear risers.The reasons are obvious,and most are allready stated.The most important one is if you release your toggles on an off heading(90 degrees or more)your canopy is going to surge forward,and you might release 1 just a split second before the other,and give yourself an even worse off-heading than you started with.
Some guys will tell you to reach up and turn with 1 of the rear risers.This is correct on anything below a 100 degree off-heading(unless your jumping a wall that is in a bowl).In case of anything over 100 degrees you want to pull both rear risers down to stop your forward momentum get the canopy to start to fly backwards,then let up(do not pop it,let up easy) on 1 while the other is pulled down,and get yourself flying away from the object.
Alot of times I see guys flipping themselves all the way around with there risers,thus losing alot of altitude.Remember all you have to do is get yourself flying away from the object then you can release the risers,and go for your breaks.You can practice these things on your Spectre,but my suggestion is to get a large 7 cell tha you will wing load around 0.65.This will get you ready on the canopy piloting side of things.This is all just my opinion,and this is what I was taught and what I teach others.Hope this helps.

http://freakboy066.tripod.com/

[SabreDave 0]

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2. The turn is faster with toggle imput and you can turn a 180 with very little altitude loss.
Bryan

I was discussing this with some friends a short while ago. Now, I also only have a handful of jumps but what I have found in running some experiments with my canopy immediately after opening is this. My canopy is a whole bunch faster to initiate a turn using risers. Now, I think this may have something to do with the size of my canopy!?!? Anyone?
I fly a 305 and love everything about it but I have noticed that when I start a turn with toggles it is slow to initiate (yes, toggles are setup well) but really starts to pick up and get into the turn after about 2 seconds+. That is a long time when flying towards an object me thinks! For me, unless it is ultra-low I will just about always go for the risers as I can turn it around way faster. Now I have experienced the serious loss of altitude cause by heavy inputs on the risers but like Jaap said......I'll take the ground over the object followed by the ground.
The other thing that I wonder is what the chances are of missing a toggle in a panic situation compared to risers?! I think it would be less likely to miss a handful of riser...anyone!!?!?
Jaap mentioned Slim's video and I have watched it several times. It looks to me and of course no disrespect is intended here but it looks like he misses the left toggle on the first go or grabs brake-line!? Not that it made any difference in this case but I just wonder how much harder it is to get that toggle as opposed to riser.....
There.....a little long winded but whatevs

SabreDave

[NickDG 23]

An early last instruction given many times to new jumpers prior to launch is, "head high, risers . . ." Not, "head high, toggles . . ."

I was kind of shocked when I saw Slim go for his toggles before hitting that cliff. I thought at first, okay he's human and he just made a mistake in the heat of the moment. I never touch the toggles until my canopy is heading in the direction I want to go. There's always a chance for a toggle miss, or a pure hang-up, and if that happens you certainly want some clear air around you.

A short delay from a hard object after a clean 180 puts you in the kill zone and you need to get the hell out of there. Why pop the brakes and deal with the surge, a big surge if you have deep brake settings, that will just put you into the object harder if you can't make the turn? You are also betting it all on a clean toggle release and we know that's not always assured.

Leaving the brakes stowed and rear risering yourself back onto a safe heading is easy, it's fast, and it serves another purpose too. If you can't avoid the object using the risers (and in that case you never would have had a chance using the toggles) when you do hit your forward speed is lower, and if you come back off you'll get a less wild re-inflation with the brakes still stowed. If it's really not your day and you come off groggy or unconscious, but keep flying back into the object over and over how do you want to do that, certainly not in full flight . . .

Now, if you're jumping something tall and tracked away prior to deploying being a toggle grabber is fine, but it isn't when the object is still within spitting distance. I've seen more than a few short freefalls end with a good on heading opening and then the jumper fumbles the brake release and turns himself back into the object. It's always better to fly away for a bit, and give yourself some room before releasing the brakes. If altitude doesn't allow for that, then gee, just leave the damn brakes stowed. Landing on the rear risers is even more viable now than it used to be as we are jumping much larger canopies.

While any BASE jump is dangerous in its entirety, there are certain points that are triggers for doomville. The launch is one, when you pitch is another, releasing the brakes, and landing round that out. You can blow, or be less than perfect, on one of those things and probably still survive. Fail at two or more and you're counting on luck rather than skill.

Something I think that's happening is we are forgetting the golden rule that everything is very site specific. A technique that works on the potato bridge or tall wall is death off a small wall or the Flatiron building. We are making so many more jumps now that we are forming habits that don't translate from site to site. Mentors who teach site specific courses must reinforce that point. There are also so many more of us these days it's possible to meet enough other jumpers who are doing things wrong that these practices appear right.

So don't take any passed on information for granted. Knowledge and skill is our second chance, we carry our reserve parachutes in our minds, not on our backs . . .

NickD BASE 194

[TomAiello 26]

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Quote

2. The turn is faster with toggle imput and you can turn a 180 with very little altitude loss.
Bryan

...My canopy is a whole bunch faster to initiate a turn using risers....

Can you guys define what you mean by "faster"?

I see a lot of people arguing that toggles or risers are "faster", but few people actually agreeing on what they mean by faster.

Is faster:

a) Makes the canopy change heading while consuming less horizontal distance toward the object?
b) Makes the canopy change heading while consuming less vertical distance (toward the ground)?
c) Makes the canopy change heading while consuming less time (in seconds)?

It's important to agree on what you mean by "faster" because either toggles or risers is "faster" depending on which of the above (or any other) definitions you choose.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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...Slim's video and I have watched it several times. It looks to me and of course no disrespect is intended here but it looks like he misses the left toggle on the first go or grabs brake-line!?

This was also Slim's opinion. He was pretty much just going by the video, too, though, as (at least when I discussed it with him) he had no memory of the incident (due to massive head trauma, in case you missed that part).

Slim told me that he thought a big grab toggle would have been the solution in this case, and allowed him to avoid striking the object.

Personally, I disagreed with him (I would have gone for risers in that case), but he made the point that the cliff was relatively low, and using toggles (assuming he had avoided the strike) he might still have been able to control the landing, where with risers he likely would have lost sufficient altitude that the landing would have been one of those ugly, high speed PLF's where you are just hoping to limp away.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

I'm with Nick on this one. For a while, the conventional wisdom appeared to be shifting to toggles for object avoidance. I believe this was a result of (as Nick points out) experiences on big walls.

With the onset of "potato jumping" (i.e. people with literally hundreds of potato jumps before they ever jump anything else) we're also seeing a massive opportunity to form and ingrain bad habits (like correcting heading on toggles--or even just being lazy about the whole thing on every jump).

This place is a fantastic training ground. It also gives us the chance to become very complacent.

It's my opinion that if you must avoid imminent object strike, risers are going to be the best choice 99% of the time (of course, this depends on your definition of "imminent", so I'll borrow from Dwain and say that imminent means "your body is bracing for impact.")

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[SabreDave 0]

Quote

Can you guys define what you mean by "faster"?

I see a lot of people arguing that toggles or risers are "faster", but few people actually agreeing on what they mean by faster.

Is faster:

a) Makes the canopy change heading while consuming less horizontal distance toward the object?
b) Makes the canopy change heading while consuming less vertical distance (toward the ground)?
c) Makes the canopy change heading while consuming less time (in seconds)?

It's important to agree on what you mean by "faster" because either toggles or risers is "faster" depending on which of the above (or any other) definitions you choose.

Hey Tom

I am talking mainly about "C". Having never had to do this actually facing an object ....yet, this is what I have noticed. I know I eat more altitude with risers and my thoughts are, it should consume slightly less horizontal distance also?!
So yah, it was time in seconds to get the canopy turned around I was talking about. This has been my experience so far.....

SabreDave

[TomAiello 26]

Unfortunately, as with so many things "it depends."

Using more time is usually a non-issue (in fact, often positive). The critical issue is usually horizontal distance consumed. But if you have a headwind on a solid object (i.e. blowing you back into the cliff), the "time" sort of faster becomes important, which is why you will sometimes want to use toggles on a 180 off a big wall (since you're unlikely to be jumping any low solid objects in a headwind, I hope).

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[DaveO 0]

Let's not forget that if you release your toggles and still have an object strike you might get knocked sinceless and drop one or both of them. Then you'll be in for a fun ride. I myself am breaking the habit of going for toggles. Risers are the way to go.

My 2 cents

"When it comes to BASE, I'll never give advice, only my opinion"

[NickDG 23]

>>I know I eat more altitude with risers and my thoughts are<<

I don't get that. You descend slower in brakes and also fly forward slower. Turning flight in brakes always uses less of both. And since a little riser equals a lot of toggle a riser turn doesn't deform the wing as much . . . Unless you're honking down on the riser like it was a toggle I don't understand what you're saying? Am I missing something . . . ?

NickD BASE 194

[TomAiello 26]

My experience has been that riser turns take more altitude than toggle turns.

I think that you are essentially stalling half the wing, so the other half spins around it (to minimize forward travel). Contrast this "stall and spin" style turn with the tail deflection of a toggle turn, where the airfoil is deformed to create the turn, but is still flying (albeit slower on one side). At any rate, that's my rationalization to explain what I've observed.

I do think it's possible to over-amp the riser turn, and stall well more than half of the canopy (even all of it, in theory, although I haven't been able to do this with properly customized brakes) creating an excessive descent rate that could be avoided by more delicate riser control. This is a good reason to practice your riser turns, in brakes, before you need them in an emergency. One of my friends has pointed out to me, however, that I must be crazy to think that anyone is going to respond "delicately" when faced with imminent object strike.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[SabreDave 0]

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>>
I don't get that. You descend slower in brakes and also fly forward slower. Turning flight in brakes always uses less of both. And since a little riser equals a lot of toggle a riser turn doesn't deform the wing as much . . . Unless you're honking down on the riser like it was a toggle I don't understand what you're saying? Am I missing something . . . ?
NickD BASE 194

Like I said, in my limited experience this is what I have observed. The several times I got on the risers right after opening and simulated an object avoidance there was no question that I lost more altitude than the same excercise with toggles. With my brakes set quite close to the stall point I believe it is the act of basically stalling out one side. Now, I was not gentle and I did haul down pretty good on the risers as I wanted to know how my canopy would behave with large, quick inputs and just how fast it could be turned etc. Kind of feeling out the outer edges of it I guess.
I know that being smooth is important and mentally I try to rehearse that but this was me doing what I thought I would probably do in a fast happening offheading situation.

SabreDave

[MWGemini 0]

I've uploaded a short video of the grip I'm suggesting to http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2374. The aspect ratio is off (sorry- I ripped it in a hurry and forgot to change the output size), but it should still demonstrate the general idea pretty well. Better than words can, at least.

In the video, I made my movements very slow and exaggerated so that it would be easier to see what I was doing. Obviously, it can be done much much faster and smoother.

Also note that this was performed on the hanging harness at my DZ, so the toggles are not in the same spot as they would normally be (although they are close), nor are they attached the same way (ours are just velcroed on the the riser, and the velcro is wearing out, so they aren't well attached). Again, this video is just to demonstrate the general idea.

I have not yet tested this on an actual jump yet, although I hope to get a chance to try it this weekend. I think with a little bit of practice, it can be done just as quickly and as accurately as grabbing for the risers only. Especially with the big grab toggles (with which I have no experience). Another thought I had is that if it were somehow possible to either twist the riser about 90 degrees towards the outside of the jumper, or have the toggles mount on an extra piece of webbing on the side, rather than the back of the riser, grabbing them both would be MUCH easier, as you would just reach straight into (forward) the loop, and would not have to enter the toggle from the side (whichever side that may be).

This is all just food for thought. I do not have the experience to know if this could really be an improvement, nor do I have the experience to know if it could be worse than normal.

I am looking forward to hearing your thoughts/comments/suggestions on this.

Thanks,

Mike

Edit: late night grammar mistake

[basehoundsam 0]

Mike,
Not to be hypercritical......but......... you should try BASE jumping before you start experimenting with BASE jumping. Stick to the risers.......at least until you have enough real-time experience to be safe and analytical about things. Believe me when I tell you... your first few jumps are very sensory overloadish....... keep it simple and safe.Remember that in your first series of jumps you ingrain habits into your future jumping technique. Bad habits are harder to correct later that sooner. I used to have this cool little sit-flying thing I used to do (afraid to go head low).... it took some serious potato-time to straighten that out later in my jumping. Tried and True are the way to go for a bit of longevity in this sport. Leave experimenting to Spence and Tom...... they seem to enjoy figuring out silly-human tricks :) !
Oh.... and good luck.

Jay Epstein Ramirez
www.adrenalineexploits.com

[crwper 7]

A couple of thoughts. First of all, I usually grab my toggles from the outside, but with my thumbs up. This is a small difference, but it seems to me your chances of accidentally letting go of the toggle when you grab it thumbs-down are somewhat higher.

Second, suppose you grabbed the toggles/risers as in your proposed method, and began a correction. Suppose you then needed to move one hand quickly to the opposite front riser. I think Dwain suggested something like this for a quick riser turn. If your hand is also through the toggle, it seems to me you have increased your chances of accidentally releasing that toggle as you reach for the opposite front riser.

Finally, I think even in grabbing your toggles/risers as in the proposed method, you are increasing your chances of dislodging a toggle accidentally. When I grab my rear risers, my hands come around the outside of the riser, with my fingers wrapping around the front. This keeps the toggle out of the way completely. If you start involving the toggles in your riser grab, I think you're just asking for trouble.

It seems to me the whole idea of being able to move quickly from a riser to a toggle is perhaps not worth the risks. If you grab your rear risers to make a correction, you probably won't be letting go of them until you are no longer pointed at the object, right? So you'll have plenty of time to find your toggles.

Michael

[MWGemini 0]

Well, I had a chance to try it on a skydive today, and it wasn't quite as easy as I thought it would be from practicing it on the ground. The potential for missing the toggle is larger than I originally thought. This forced me to take an extra half second to be sure my hands were where they should be. When it matters, that is a half second that won't be there. Maybe with practice, or wide grip toggles.

To those who have provided their feedback, thank you. This method may have its merits. Or it might not be worth the (digital) paper it is printed on (so to speak), but I thank you for your feedback. I'm trying to learn all I can now so that in a few years when I start BASE jumping, I'll be the safest and most knowledgeable jumper I can be.

To those who have reacted negatively toward my post, I apologize for intruding on your space. If you look at my record, you'll see that my only posts here are ones that could affect the community as a whole. The rest of the time, I just lurk quietly in the shadows and try to be observant and learn. I'm sure i look like just another whuffo to you, another person trained to think BASE is just a cool game by Mountain Dew commercials and the like. That is not the case, as anyone who knows me can attest to. My outlook is that I am here for the long haul, and I will be patient while I build the necessary skills to do this as safely as possible. It is this desire to be safe that has me constantly thinking.

In the military, we were taught to follow orders. I always asked too many questions, and rubbed a lot of people the wrong way because of that. Some of them were stupid questions. Some of them saved time, money, and maybe even lives. I'll gladly look like a fool a few dozen times if it means that every once in a while I come up with a good idea that makes a difference. We were taught to "train as you'll fight, because you WILL fight as you trained". This mentality has carried over into my skydiving. That is why I am thinking about BASE with only ~70 jumps (and in fact started skydiving with the goal of getting into BASE). There is no reason for me to wait until I have a few hundred jumps to START LEARNING about the sport. I'd rather start learning immediately, and over a long period of time, see what works, what doesn't, maybe come up with some new ideas, and have a much deeper understanding of the sport and what is required to do it safely.

Like I said, I plan to be here for a long time, and I'll take whatever steps are necessary to ensure that I'm doing so safely. I've got enough titanium in my body as it is.

Again, thanks to everyone who has provided me with their input. This technique may work for you. It may not. If you try it, I would love to hear your thoughts on it (good, bad, or otherwise). I'm not asking any of you to change your procedures based on my idea. If the idea has merit, evaluate it and use it at your discretion. If it does not, discard it and move on, or think of something better. The ultimate goal is to do this safely and have fun, is it not?

Mike