Wall Strike in Moab!

[TomAiello 26]

Was the canopy vented?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[clint 1]

Not sure if he was jumping his Dagger or Rock Dragon. Slickrock, can you clarify this?

[JaapSuter 0]

Also, Slickrock, can you confirm whether or not you have tuned your DBS?

[nicrussell 0]

What type, if any, body armor was being worn? If little or none would more have helped, or if a full setup or close to (full face, spine protector, elbow [sad, knee/shin gaurds. heavy duty boots, etc.) significantly aided you in speaking with us now?

[RayLosli 11]

Nick I am not picking on you necessarily. This Thread is Mainly why I am Writing this.
I am tacking this on after your post because this Toggle and Riser discussion is not being properly addressed.
There are BASE jumpers out there that Know this and Do This. but They are not Posting How-To or the proper PLACES to use Toggles.
I am writing this to Hopefully help Give a little clarity to the ones that are still Learning to do the Right thing on Basics, when they have a 180 on a BASE Jump.
*
Bridge-Day is a, Bridge. WHY would you use anything but Toggles on a BRIDGE. ?????
Toggles over Risers is always the best thing on Heading Correction after opening on a Bridge BASE Jump.. Slider-Up or Slider Down.
OK, first thing: Bridge-Day and having a 180 deg. off Heading and using Rear-Riser impute is not the Best Example to Throw out there for What is Right on the Use of Riser or Toggle for Heading Correction.
For one Thing. It has more CLEAN AIR . Almost like a Skydive. Any Moron could Turn a 180 around there
If you Can Not. You are a fucking Sub-Species lower than Brain Dead.
You use Bridge-Day as an Example for SKYDIVERS that are doing there 1st BASE Jump.
Not for BASE Jumpers learning to jump.
also:
Bridges have - Almost Always - a HEAD or TAIL Wind on exit.
Your 180 deg. off heading, could have a Head or a Tail-Wind.
If you have a 180 deg. off Heading with a Head Wind and you are in deep Brake settings. You Will have Almost NONE or very little forward Speed. but Most Importantly you will have EXTREMELY GOOD RESPONSIVE Rear-Riser impute if that is what you chose to use for a Correction TOOL.
If you exit a bridge, Have a 180 and have a Tail-Wind on top of it all Your Canopy will respond Like SHIT.
You will - BURN Up - Precious Altitude, @ the same time your Canopy will turn like a over-loaded School Bus.

BRIDGES : On a 180 or off heading you always , 99% of the time USE YOUR TOGGLES to correct your heading.
the only - 5 - exceptions are

1. If the side or sides of the Canyon or Wall of Gorge etc of what ever the Bridge is Spanning is Very Close to you on the exits, Like very Narrow and step walls. Most exits are in the center of the span with VERY liberal Clearance.

2. Or you are Very Low to the ground on Exit. Or you are Very-Low to the ground after you Pull when exiting a Bridge.

3. If you are a Very New BASE Student. If the student does not seem to be sensory over-loaded. Then by all means Teach Him to Go For The Toggles on a Bridge Exit for Canopy Heading Correction after Opening.

4. You have Line Twists and are closer to the Sides of Gorge or Canyon and Close to other object on the Ground.
You WILL REACH-UP above the line-twists and PULL a Rear-Riser for heading correction.

5. You were never Taught or Observed Better, Advanced BASE jumpers Doing It.

NOW...some more FACT. Using Toggles on a Shear face object for a Heading Correction after Opening is an ADVANCED MOVE.
This is a Fact. There is NO REBUTTAL or ARGUMENT that can be given to Over-Ride this.
It is more Advanced, More Daring and more chance of RISK to Fucking-Up.

FACT : The Classical and Proven technique of Rear-Risers Heading Correction is Taught and used by The Majority of BASE Jumpers.

but: TVPB said it CORRECTLY.
There is NO DEBATE about it. Toggle is Faster than Risers on Stopping and Turning your Canopy Around.
FACT : Having your Canopy Tuned with your Deep-Brake Setting WILL HELP over-ride the canopy from the initial instinct to Surge into Forward movement.
Combined with the proper Working Technique of Toggle Heading Correction in a 180 circumstance.
When your Canopy has a Proper Deep-Brake Setting,Combined with Toggles on Heading Correction Will Stop and Turn your Canopy FASTER than the use of Rear-Risers with proper Deep Brake setting.

The Proper Technique is. You Un-Stow and SLAM them both Down Equally. You Stop The Canopy. Then Back-Up the Canopy if your Crowded for space. If you Have the proper clearance from the object then let-up on the toggle of choice and Turn -Away.
You do not Chose one or the other Toggle to use on this Technique. You use BOTH toggles, VERY AGGRESSIVELY. You Toggle, Man-Handle that Canopy like your Life Depends on it.
You do not chose to use ONE RISER and ONE TOGGLE in combination. No mater what circumstances or theories your Little Brains can come up with. You ether use One or The Other. Not Both. Not Ever.

Using Slim's jump off Garie Beach as a Example as a Toggle FUMBLE, Fuck-Up on heading correction ???
It's not like there is that much documentation out there by Eye-Witness or Video to document the HUGE RISK FACTOR or the percentage of heading correction Fuck-Ups on BASE Jumps when using toggles over Risers.

Like I said... "I am writing this to Hopfully help Give a little clarity to the ones that are still Learning the Basics, to BASE Jump"
The use of Toggles is an advanced move. to be used in combination with BASE experience and to what kind of object being jumped.
OK : The majority of heading correction that happens for me is Riser. It's what I Drilled on as a Student. It is what I practice Now. The only way I can Explane this thing is It just came and I was not looking for it.
It just Happened on certain jumps. I did not choose to do it. It Choose Me. and I am also Still Learning.
It kinda a personal and sensitive issue with me anyway, on Where or when to use Toggles.
If you talk to other BASE jumpers who use this Technique You might get a different answer all together.
If you chose to use this Technique I feel . It has to come from inside you. - SPONTANEOUSLY- with out Thought. that's the only way I can explane it.If it does not. You might be to Slow. & that might enough to be a, fucking-up-Badly. Toggle heading correction with shear-face objects only comes about by doing a lot of repetitious BASE jumps.
Enough BASE jumps to where the use of Toggles just happens as Spontaneous action.
*
I feel in Rare Form Tonight to Argue proper Heading Correction Technique.
So anybody fellin Froggy enough, dont hesitate to Jump On.
.
.

[base428 1]

Ray,

I agree with most of what you wrote, except for:

-Bridge Day has rappelling lines dangling from the bridge, so it really needs to be treated like a cliff jump.
-I still do riser turns off EVERY object (cliff, bridge, or anything for that matter) in order to be consistent.
-Risers are always faster than toggles if you've blown a toggle

Otherwise, great information Ray. Cya.

(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only

[JohnnyUtah 0]

Heres my 2 cents

I agree with most of what Tom Begic and Ray Losli have said on this subject.
I disagree with most of what Nick and Tom A have said on this subject.

I spent today writing an article on the subject of Risers or Toggles hoping to shed some light here. The article can be found in the Info Library section of my website

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:johnny@johnnyutah.com

[JaapSuter 0]

Thanks Johnny. That was a good read. Definitely stuff to think about and practice on skydives and bridges.

Thanks,

Jaap

[RayLosli 11]

Ya there are some ropes out there.
I think I might have seen Avery, get a Close look @ one of those Rope things Once a time ago ........

With the Repelling Ropes Hanging, It kind of goes with the Head & Tail Wind with a Bridge exit.
If you got a Tail Wind on the 180. If you are a BASE jumper. The Toggle Correction will be Faster.
If you got a head wind, You most likely be OK.

I think I am Hinting @ that it should be made a -Standard teaching Practice - for BASE that on Bridge Jumps.Toggle Technique is Preferred for Heading Correction over Riser.
.
.

[TVPB 0]

Hi Nick

r.e. the long time jumpers and toggle/riser debate.

Its out there big time. It is not only on the internet. Come down under and you'll see what I mean. I have seen it in Europe, and I have seen it in the States.

I am personally heavily in favour of risers for deployment heading correction. I teach that to all my students.

p.s. regarding my comments on relative speed between risers and toggles, I need to clarify a few points I was making:
- I was comparing the inputs in stages.
- the time from decision to grip is slightly greater for toggles.
- the likelihood of an incorrect grip or missed grip is higher on toggles than on risers.
- I think I mentioned that the speed comparison was after a correct grip had been made and the toggle was released. Forgive me if I missed this. Given this scenario, a toggle input will make a faster turn than risers. But the speed is offset by likelihood of positioning closer to an object. And when you factor in the time and risk mentioned above, it seems logical to me that ON AVERAGE, riser inputs are a better option. People may argue against this in specific circumstances.

Anyway, its all personal perceptions and judgement. I'll try to dig up some published material on canopy control and flight and include it here.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[slickrock 0]

Odessey with a 244 Dagger. DBS are right on from day one so I never moved them. Helment and Knee pads. 42 f111 PC. 400 foot cliff with a good one second delay. Winds 2 to 5 left to right but variable.

[TVPB 0]

Tail wind on a 180 where you have a chance of hitting something?????

I thought this thread was about risers versus toggles, not about right from wrong...

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[TVPB 0]

Hi Ray. You asked for it.

Primacy in learning is super critical when teaching students. Toggle this time, riser that time, if the wind is over that speed do this, if it is that speed do that, if its low do this, if its narrow do that, if if if if if if.. . . . . .

What if I forget page 47859 of the BASE encyclopaedia that I have been taught prior to my first jump? Keep it simple.

I think teaching BASE jumping is like learning investing. Find a series of simple rules that are known to work, and stick to them. Don't use emotion, gut feel, what if's, every time you should be making simple decision.

r.e. wind and bridge jumps: you only have wind on a bridge jump if you choose to jump in wind. Your figures are skewed by personal experience, and your personal risk tolerance. These figures should not be extrapolated to beginners. If its too windy, you don't jump. There is no complication here. Too windy does not mean acceptable wind, it means too much wind. You've just answered the question of "to jump, or not to jump"? Its more important teaching a student how to say NO than all the combinations and variations in equipment and jumping technique. They will learn the details over time if they choose to do so. If not, natural selection will look after them.

Toggles over risers on a bridge. Here is a common scenario on lower bridge jumps amongst inexperienced jumpers. Deep brake settings - open - slight stall due to poor brake setting &/or wind interference - pop toggles & unknowingly go to full drive - panic - deep brake input due to fear of hitting ground - still time - go to full drive due to insufficient drive to generate lift/flare on landing - SURGE - deep brake pound in.

How about - if you feel rushed - rear riser flare and PLF - assuming the ground is not covered in boulders)?

Toggles to correct heading on lower jumps #2 - 90 degree off heading - excessive toggle input = hook turn landing.....

I have seen many people fumble for their toggles for heading correction. I have done it myself. If you throw a twist in with the off heading, your body is spinning around which makes it even harder to accurately grab your toggles in a timely fashion.

Let me clarify again - toggles are faster than risers WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE OUTPUT OR RESPONSE. They are NOT a better option overall, especially when considering inexperienced jumpers or students.

As usual, just my opinion.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

DBS are right on from day one so I never moved them.

Can you tell us what your test process was for determining this?

Thanks!

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[slickrock 0]

seven seconds on a 1200' antenna. I just let it fly without releasing the toggles watching my decent in relationship to the A and the ground. A test flair or two and a nice soft landing. From there I never gave it another thought.

[TomAiello 26]

Quote

seven seconds on a 1200' antenna. I just let it fly without releasing the toggles watching my decent in relationship to the A and the ground. A test flair or two and a nice soft landing. From there I never gave it another thought.

Um, you tested your deep brake setting slider up?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Faber 0]

Quote

Fact - toggles DOES give a faster response than risers.

i dont agree you need to pull way less on your risers to get input,therfore people like me somtimes rearriser stall canopyes..

As pulling rearriser you plull both your toogle and other lines(give it a look,there ARE lines attached to your riser)

It will always be a faster turn using ANY risers on your canopy,just be sure you know what your doing...

Quote

Fact - it DOES take longer to grab your toggles than it does your risers (cf your eg). Even for big grab toggles.

i do agree it takes a milisec more as youll need to pull the toogle longer down to release it... not much notice i would say...

Quote

Fact - there is a higher probability that you will miss a toggle as opposed to a riser

i fully agree,as your right

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[RayLosli 11]

Is that all you got..? Bring it on Buddy......
Hey, Hey, Hey. What do you mean. If, If, If ?
IF - your jumping you jump and IF you Don't you Don't Jump.
If your jumping a Bridge the ONLY. decision to make is Toggles over risers. There's No - IF - about it....
If you are Jumping a Bridge and you Open off-Heading. You tell me - Why Everyone should not Use the Toggles ?
It is Superior in Speed of Correction. Is it Not. ? Especially if you Have A Tail wind on a 180. On a Bridge BASE Jump. (If I am wrong about that correct me.)
Learning is Learning. For every one. & Learning Is Safety.
As far as Students Go. They are all different. ( Right ? )
If a learning Student is Not getting to much Sensory overload and is a Good Learner. Why not teach Him Or Her the BEST way ? They can Handle it. The Brighter mechanically skilled People will always stand-out over the SLOW-learners.
'
TB :
"Toggles to correct heading on lower jumps #2 - 90 degree off heading - excessive toggle input = hook turn landing....."
-
What the FUCK ? Is that a Trick Question ?
OK....If ANY BASE jumper or Student does not know that a Hook-Turn with Toggles Low to the ground is BAD.
He or Her will Learn Pretty F-ing Quick.
You should not have to Teach That. You as a student BASE jumper should have enough Skydives as to already know that ?
Hopefully as a Student BASE jumper you are being Taught to do. Flat-Turns in Half-Breaks . Not pulling down on a Toggle but letting up on a Toggle to Turn if you are Low to the ground.....
I am not condoning the USE of Toggle for Heading Correction on Shear-Face Objects. (for anybody) they still get used though.
For Students or The Advanced Jumper. They Get used though. And on a Open Bridge exit they are the ONLY way to Go.
If the Fucking Student can not keep a BRIDGE separate From a Cliff Jump when using Toggles over Risers Than I say... " Fuck Them. Don't BASE Jump." - or - ..." Take it easy and Slow and LEARN @ your own pace."

* OK *
TB -..." Let me clarify again - toggles are faster than risers WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE OUTPUT OR RESPONSE. They are NOT a better option overall, especially when considering inexperienced jumpers or students. "
-
Overall I got to say that statement is CORRECT. Fuck dude. I got no big Rebuttals to that.
I stated that It is an advanced Move and Risky on Shear-face objects for the Experienced jumper.
But:
A BASE jumper that is going to Learn to be ( FAST on the Draw ) and Far more Efficient on Bridge Exits for Heading Correction. Will learn that it's Toggles over the use of Risers.
It's just the way it is. It's more Stream-Line on the Mechanics. + Faster on the Heading Correction.
The Better BASE Students are going to learn that anyway. That's Why they are Better. So teach them NOW. Don't let them find out latter for themselves.
.
.
Edit to add.
Also: How's about this ?
I will add that - Toggles on a Terminal delay, Shear-wall, BASE Jump for your Heading Correction is GOOD & safe to use 99 % of the time for ALL experienced BASE jumper. Provided that you got Good Clearance from the object on Opening and no Line-twists...........
-
I imagine that this has been done a Hundred times by others but As Example.
I had the privilege of using Both, Riser and Toggle in Combination once on a Big-Wall jump.
Got a Nice extra long Track and a Little Lower than desirable opening but not un-safe.
I Had a Lot of clearance when I pulled but Line-Twists & flying back at the Face So.
I climbed up above the Twist, Grabed Rear Riser, changed Canopy heading away parallel to cliff-face. Kicked Out of Twist. Immediately, Went to Toggles. Slammed them down in Half-Breaks. Flat-Turned around & Flaired safely On my LZ of choice. That always stuck in my mind as a memorable jump.
.

[RayLosli 11]

Faber, Faber, Faber
Son, You -NEED- a GOOD person to teach you the FINE-Points of BASE Jumping.

You need to come here and spend a couple Weeks with me.
I will shape your fucking, BASE Jumping Ass up in a Hurry, Brutha.........

. Everything you say is WRONG in that post / except agreeing that.
Fact - there is a higher probability that you will miss a toggle as opposed to a riser.
(but you might want to add -Might Miss- to that sentance.

If you don't want to use your Toggles over Risers in a Bride BASE jump for a Heading Correction. Then you don't know what your Missing.
.
.

[DexterBase 1]

Don't worry Ray, PDX in on the list for our trip. I think we're setting aside a couple days there.

You'll get to jump with Faber!

[JohnnyUtah 0]

I didnt want to post, but Ray, that was some funny shit bro.
I love you man!!!!!
I agree with every single thing you wrote in that last post. Your following post was equally good. You need to hook that brother up.

Faber, I second Ray. Everything you said in your last post is incorrect except this part:

Quote

Quote

Fact - there is a higher probability that you will miss a toggle as opposed to a riser

i fully agree,as your right

Im only saying this because I care about you bro.
Im glad youll be hitting PDX.

Quote

. Everything you say is WRONG in that post / except agreeing that.
Fact - there is a higher probability that you will miss a toggle as opposed to a riser.

Yes, but keep in mind, the more developed and reliable your skill is, the smaller that probability becomes.....and that is the key.
How much do you trust yourself?
Its just like a navy pilot landing on a carrier. If he doesnt trust himself, he will ask for a transfer.
You MUST be skillful to use the toggles.
Q: So why even go for them?
A: Because when used with proper technique, they can help you escape injury or death WAY better than the risers.

Q: What is the one thing that sparks fear in us on every jump where an object strike is possible?
A: An object strike!

That is because we all know it comes down to a race. You dont want to crash before you get around the track; so youll be extra careful. BUT, those who are good enough will do what they possibly can to get ahead.
Why?
So that they have a better chance of winning!

Have Fun, Don't Die!
Johnny Utah
My Website
email:johnny@johnnyutah.com

[Faber 0]

Quote

You need to come here and spend a couple Weeks with me.

bring it on

i use rearrisers to FAST turns,but they will give you a great loss of altitude... i use toogles for the NEARLY fast option were i need not to loose altitude...

Lets have a beer while talking about this...

Quote

If you don't want to use your Toggles over Risers in a Bride BASE jump for a Heading Correction.

you know as i jump my wife im naked and dont need toogles or risers im allready on the right track then

Quote

Son, You -NEED- a GOOD person

DAD i need more mony

Stay safe
Stefan Faber

[TVPB 0]

Yeah, natural selection is all good, except when you are there to pick up the pieces.

I have seen a bloke do a floater off a lower bridge, fumble for his toggles, and 4 seconds later he hit a pylon. . . . which was in front of him and 45 degrees to the right!!!!! I've seen people with 1000's of skydives hook it it, I've seen people do the stall to surge frap in, I've seen. . . . Anyway. . . .

Teaching the "right way" straight off has its merits. But you have to have the right back ground and the right objects to be able to do this. You have to remember, there are people reading these forums as their basis for BASE education and training. They will take the word of most people here and go out and jump there high risk objects using techniques appropriate only for experienced jumpers on lower risk objects. This is serious stuff. It happens. We had one guy turn out to one of our Waterfall boogies in the late nineties after having read a tongue in cheek article in a magazine. He did not even know we were there, it was a coincidence that he turned up at the same time as us. He jumped with D-Bag etc.

BTW

<>
What is this getting major separation away from the wall stuff on big wall BASE jumps huh? Ya big sissy!!!

Don't forget, you are talking to an Aussie. We get lonely when the rock is not there!!!!!!!!!

Hence, risers it is for me. Usually!

Your turn Ray.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[TVPB 0]

Changed my mind.

I think we should all use the art of Zen & Meditation in correcting our headings.

As the canopy is deploying, cross your arms over in front of you, close your eyes, and "be the canopy". Fly gracefully towards the wall, be at one with it, tease it, torment it, gracefully push it further away from you, then reject it. Turn away when it wants you the most. Glide towards. . . . . . .

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.

[DexterBase 1]

Yeah... I'm going to stick with hitting the toggles lightning fast and ripping that canopy off the wall.

I'm not too good at all that Zen stuff, so I will stick with what I know.