johnny1488 1 #1 February 10, 2004 Does it do anything? I know plenty of people swear on rolling the nose/tail/ spend 20 minutes getting everything in order in their preparation to lay the canopy down. I have watched openings in slo-mo and thought about it an awful lot and it seemd to me that as soon as the last stows come off the bag and the slider hits the airstream, everything you just spent 20 minutes on goes right out the window and the canopy is going to do what its designed to do. Assume that the slider is all the way up and the brakes are set and not gonna line over. Does waving a dead chicken nailed to a packing paddle over your sabre/monarch/any canopy you want really do anything? Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prost 0 #2 February 10, 2004 I wouldn't wave a dead chicken over your canopy. Blood stains are not good for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nullified 0 #3 February 10, 2004 QuoteAssume that the slider is all the way up and the brakes are set and not gonna line over. Does waving a dead chicken nailed to a packing paddle over your sabre/monarch/any canopy you want really do anything? Quote I don't know, you'd have to ask Ralph about that. Regarding deployments, considering that when we dump, we're decelerating (rough numbers) from 120 mph to under 10 mph in around 3 seconds, I do believe that the fraction of a second that it takes for the nose/tail whatever to unroll before begining to inflate, will (or can) have a noticable effect on opening comfort. I can turn my Sabre2's snivel in to a scary-ass snivel by playing with the stabilizers, consistently, and I can get my Lightning to whack or ease me into the saddle consistently by altering packing methods...and I don't use one of those evil d-bags with the Lightning. I've heard the argument before that you're making, But John, nobody can tell me that I've imagined the different opening characteristics that I've gotten with different techniques. Stay safe, Mike If you're gonna' be stupid, well, then you're most likely stupid. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Ruffles 0 #4 February 10, 2004 I have some black and blues on my inner thighs that appeared twice when I didn't roll my nose. Objectively speaking, the appearance of these little pain trophies and their absence when I roll the nose indicates it does make a difference, however so slight. I may give the dead chicken thing a try.... / Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Tonto 1 #5 February 10, 2004 I agree with you. I think it was Bill Booth who pointed out that the slider is the primary reefing device for square parachutes, and that if the slider grommets are not hard against the casino chips - you're going to have a hard opening. Bill? I think it may have been on a Tandem packing manual about 10 - 12 years back? I use an old "Trash pack" method (Like a PRO pack on the ground) that's worked for me for 19 years, from Cruiselites, through Tandems, competition CRW rigs, high wing loading elipticals and a few base jumps - and I've never had a "hard" opening. I also think a "hard opening" is very subjective. Maybe my pain threshold is just a little higher. or I'm less picky than most. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites linestretch 0 #6 February 10, 2004 I tend to think that "some" things can "possibly" add or subtract from a canopy's opening. But the whole thought of rolling the nose or not rolling will make all the difference? I had a sabre that I ALWAYS rolled the nose on. I never jumped it without doing so only because I was affraid of what would happen if I didn't. Sorta silly, almost 1,000 jumps with that mindset, and I still got slammed a few times. Your best bet is to try different things, and see what works best for YOU. It makes me laugh when I hear people say that it will do this or that if you do this or that. There are just way too many possibilities.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites BlindBrick 0 #7 February 10, 2004 QuoteAssume that the slider is all the way up and the brakes are set and not gonna line over. Does waving a dead chicken nailed to a packing paddle over your sabre/monarch/any canopy you want really do anything? Don't know about dead chickens but I do know that everything else being equal(including full-up slider), rolling the entire nose of my Manta past the A lines was the difference between a soft opening and swackers so bad that I occasionally gashed open my arms on the rig. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites velo90 0 #8 February 10, 2004 I'm with Tonto and Bill on this one. The slider is the most important factor in the speed of the opening. If it's not against the stops you'll get slammed. Where it's placed is also important for some canopies. My vengeance just won't open fast, probaly due to the air locks. A Super 7 from paratec will slam you unless the slider is pulled all the way out in front of the nose. Rolling the tail is really just a packing aid. It keeps everything together when you put the canopy in the bag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites scottjaco 0 #9 February 10, 2004 The video you are watching is not up close enough to see what is really happening inside the parachute as it's filling with air. Tweaking the slider and the nose make a huge difference in keeping the canopy from inflating too fast. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites johnny1488 1 #10 February 10, 2004 It seemed colse enough to see that a split second after the canopy came out of the bag, the nose was exposed. I can not be sure if the nose was rolled or not, but I plan on doing some video this year of this subject. Could it be that in rolling the nose/taking special measures in the pack job, the jumper is taking better care of the stabilizers and slider? But then again I never jumped a sabre (or any bad opening canopy for that matter) after I knew how to pack or knew what a bad opening was. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bjornufknu 0 #11 February 10, 2004 Back in the day, when I started jumping, I had a PD 170, that always slammed me on opening. I really put down alot of time to roll the nose, etc, to get softer openings, wich I didn´t get. I continued to do this nose-rolling, until one day when I thougt "aaa... screw this". I packed a word-up regular propack, and did nothing. I got sweet openings after that, until I sold it. Experiment with your packjobs to get softer openings, and if it still doesn´t work out for you, pack the thing without doing any "extras". Just shove the nose in a bit, and get more sliderfabric against your belly (more slider to the nose of the canopy).d.d.s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChileRelleno 0 #12 February 10, 2004 I've experimented with different packing tricks and found that some do seem to have a effect. Slider placement is a real key with some canopies and what you do with nose IMO has some effects e.g. roll, tuck, 4-in-5 ect... When it comes to packing methods Psycho packing seems to have the most effect on openings, but obce again thats just my opinion. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bjornufknu 0 #13 February 10, 2004 Check out http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/hrdopn.pdf for PD´s ideas...d.d.s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites velo90 0 #14 February 10, 2004 And Clicky http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/hrdopn.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheBachelor 5 #15 February 10, 2004 I have a Sabre 1, and I've never been spanked on an opening where I've done a good job of rolling the nose. On the other hand, I've been slammed pretty bad on some pack jobs where I wasn't so careful.There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites The111 1 #16 February 10, 2004 QuoteCould it be that in rolling the nose/taking special measures in the pack job, the jumper is taking better care of the stabilizers and slider? I think you may be onto something here...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Blahr 0 #17 February 10, 2004 Its a very real difference. A rolled nose on my Sabre2 adds about 600 ft to the deployment and turns a nice brisk opening into a long snivel. I am a very careful packer so the rolled nose snivel is not a result of more careful packing. Its the rolled nose that does it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites councilman24 37 #18 February 10, 2004 There is no doubt us old farts (or at least this old fart) have a different definition of a hard opening. What newbies call a hard opening I call normal. What they call a soft opening I call a streamer that clears. One reason I didn't buy a Spectre was the 700 ft openings, terminal or hop and pop. Just to damn long for me. Especially when your getting out at 2000' and start hearing flat line on your TimeOut. Of course I'm an inch shorter than when I started jumping 24 years ago. Whether anyone can explain it or believes it, certain packing variations do effect certain canopy models or particular individual canopies. And I've had a couple of really hard openings. That's when you have to check your neck, and your shorts. When our DZ first got Vulcans for student canopies many years ago another JM went up to test one, and broke a rib on opening. Now that's hard.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gerrcoin 0 #19 February 10, 2004 When rolling the nose what you are really doing is closing the mouths of the cells and slowing the canopy inflation which,when combined with a correctly 'stowed'(?) slider will have a huge effect on the decceleration. This is most noticable with Zero P canopies where the air has no other method of getting into the cells. Rolling the tail will not have the same effect.However different methods of rolling the nose will have different effects. Rolling all the cells together will slow the opening initially but once they see the airflow they open together giving a greater shock. The method I use is to roll the outer cells on each side together towards the centre and hide the centre cell between them. Thus while the canopy is opening the centre cell will inflate first and the slider will begin to descend. The the rolls will work free as the canopy unfurls and the cells will inflate sequentally from the centre outwards towards the stabilisers. Personally I find that this makes for a reasonably gentle opening.Different canopies will behave in different ways the way I do it. The more rolls you put in and the tighter they are the longer the inflation takes. Too many and it snivels for longer. Try a few methods and regardless what the technical explainations are,stick with whatever works for you personally and for that particular canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites FrogNog 1 #20 February 10, 2004 QuoteIt seemed colse enough to see that a split second after the canopy came out of the bag, the nose was exposed. Did you see more than one deployment on video? One of anything as variable as deployments seems an improper basis for making a rule. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Supergeil 0 #21 February 11, 2004 Stabilizers what is that???? Could someone please explain I properly know the word on Danish...but on English it's not saying me much! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites johnny1488 1 #22 February 11, 2004 Thats why I was planning on doing a buch of videos of deyployments this year. I want to see the nose of the canopy still rolled and not exposed to air after it comes out of the bag. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Fireflyer 0 #23 February 11, 2004 albeit a newbie, i had the same thing happen on the sabre i use if i dont roll it well QuoteI have some black and blues on my inner thighs that appeared twice when I didn't roll my nose. Objectively speaking, the appearance of these little pain trophies and their absence when I roll the nose indicates it does make a difference, however so slight. I may give the dead chicken thing a try.... / Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #24 February 11, 2004 Much of packing nowadays is essentially voodoo. People start packing and have little control over the slider, the stow length etc and get crappy openings. Someone says "dude, roll the nose." They do and it doesn't help. Someone else says "dude, roll the hell out of the tail." They do and notice some improvement, because they're getting lots of practice at packing. So they figure wrapping the tail is good. After about 100 pack jobs, someone says "dude, stand on one foot." They do, and suddenly notice that their 101st pack job was much better than their 50th. Did standing on one foot do it, or did 50 more pack jobs make the difference? There are certain things you can do during pro-packing to help ensure consistent openings - ensuring that the slider is quartered and seated so it doesn't get trapped in an odd position (and thus not do its job of reefing) making sure the steering lines do not get around the nose, keeping the slider from moving down the lines, making reasonably tight stows etc. Tricks that help you get it into the bag with those parts of the pack job intact help provide more consistent (and generally softer) openings; rolling the tail is one example. It doesn't do much in and of itself, but it helps people control the slider when they put it in the bag, and that can make all the difference. Likewise, if you roll the nose and quarter the slider over it, and that helps you keep the lines in the center and the slider hard up against the stops, then you'll get better openings. But it's not because that 1.1 ounce fabric is going to hold that roll even a little bit when it hits the air. >When rolling the nose what you are really doing is closing the > mouths of the cells and slowing the canopy inflation . . . 1/10 second out of the bag, any organization you have given the nose is pretty much gone. 120mph of wind will destroy any careful folding and positioning of the nose. >This is most noticable with Zero P canopies where the air has no > other method of getting into the cells. Air "getting through" F111 isn't really an issue in parachute openings. We're talking a rate of tens of thousands of CFM during inflation; the 0-3cfm rate you get through F111 doesn't play much of a role unless you actually cut holes in the bottom of the canopy (which some BASE canopies do.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ryoder 1,590 #25 February 11, 2004 QuoteMuch of packing nowadays is essentially voodoo. Amen! I have three different canopies which I jump regularly, and I have packed all three the same way for the last 500 jumps. And all three have slammed me about 1% of the time, even the Diablo which normally snivels 700-1100 feet. Some time back I was in a discussion with a fellow jumper who is a forensic chemist for a police department. I was expounding on my opinion that if you were to measure the peak G forces of many openings of ANY canopy, you would see a bell curve with a few snivels and slammers at the tails of the curve. He nodded in agreement and solemnly stated: "Yes, plus or minus several standard deviations, it happens.""There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. 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Ruffles 0 #4 February 10, 2004 I have some black and blues on my inner thighs that appeared twice when I didn't roll my nose. Objectively speaking, the appearance of these little pain trophies and their absence when I roll the nose indicates it does make a difference, however so slight. I may give the dead chicken thing a try.... / Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #5 February 10, 2004 I agree with you. I think it was Bill Booth who pointed out that the slider is the primary reefing device for square parachutes, and that if the slider grommets are not hard against the casino chips - you're going to have a hard opening. Bill? I think it may have been on a Tandem packing manual about 10 - 12 years back? I use an old "Trash pack" method (Like a PRO pack on the ground) that's worked for me for 19 years, from Cruiselites, through Tandems, competition CRW rigs, high wing loading elipticals and a few base jumps - and I've never had a "hard" opening. I also think a "hard opening" is very subjective. Maybe my pain threshold is just a little higher. or I'm less picky than most. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
linestretch 0 #6 February 10, 2004 I tend to think that "some" things can "possibly" add or subtract from a canopy's opening. But the whole thought of rolling the nose or not rolling will make all the difference? I had a sabre that I ALWAYS rolled the nose on. I never jumped it without doing so only because I was affraid of what would happen if I didn't. Sorta silly, almost 1,000 jumps with that mindset, and I still got slammed a few times. Your best bet is to try different things, and see what works best for YOU. It makes me laugh when I hear people say that it will do this or that if you do this or that. There are just way too many possibilities.my pics & stuff! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlindBrick 0 #7 February 10, 2004 QuoteAssume that the slider is all the way up and the brakes are set and not gonna line over. Does waving a dead chicken nailed to a packing paddle over your sabre/monarch/any canopy you want really do anything? Don't know about dead chickens but I do know that everything else being equal(including full-up slider), rolling the entire nose of my Manta past the A lines was the difference between a soft opening and swackers so bad that I occasionally gashed open my arms on the rig. -Blind"If you end up in an alligator's jaws, naked, you probably did something to deserve it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velo90 0 #8 February 10, 2004 I'm with Tonto and Bill on this one. The slider is the most important factor in the speed of the opening. If it's not against the stops you'll get slammed. Where it's placed is also important for some canopies. My vengeance just won't open fast, probaly due to the air locks. A Super 7 from paratec will slam you unless the slider is pulled all the way out in front of the nose. Rolling the tail is really just a packing aid. It keeps everything together when you put the canopy in the bag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
scottjaco 0 #9 February 10, 2004 The video you are watching is not up close enough to see what is really happening inside the parachute as it's filling with air. Tweaking the slider and the nose make a huge difference in keeping the canopy from inflating too fast. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #10 February 10, 2004 It seemed colse enough to see that a split second after the canopy came out of the bag, the nose was exposed. I can not be sure if the nose was rolled or not, but I plan on doing some video this year of this subject. Could it be that in rolling the nose/taking special measures in the pack job, the jumper is taking better care of the stabilizers and slider? But then again I never jumped a sabre (or any bad opening canopy for that matter) after I knew how to pack or knew what a bad opening was. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjornufknu 0 #11 February 10, 2004 Back in the day, when I started jumping, I had a PD 170, that always slammed me on opening. I really put down alot of time to roll the nose, etc, to get softer openings, wich I didn´t get. I continued to do this nose-rolling, until one day when I thougt "aaa... screw this". I packed a word-up regular propack, and did nothing. I got sweet openings after that, until I sold it. Experiment with your packjobs to get softer openings, and if it still doesn´t work out for you, pack the thing without doing any "extras". Just shove the nose in a bit, and get more sliderfabric against your belly (more slider to the nose of the canopy).d.d.s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 0 #12 February 10, 2004 I've experimented with different packing tricks and found that some do seem to have a effect. Slider placement is a real key with some canopies and what you do with nose IMO has some effects e.g. roll, tuck, 4-in-5 ect... When it comes to packing methods Psycho packing seems to have the most effect on openings, but obce again thats just my opinion. ChileRelleno-Rodriguez Bro#414 Hellfish#511,MuffBro#3532,AnvilBro#9, D24868 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bjornufknu 0 #13 February 10, 2004 Check out http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/hrdopn.pdf for PD´s ideas...d.d.s. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
velo90 0 #14 February 10, 2004 And Clicky http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/hrdopn.pdf Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheBachelor 5 #15 February 10, 2004 I have a Sabre 1, and I've never been spanked on an opening where I've done a good job of rolling the nose. On the other hand, I've been slammed pretty bad on some pack jobs where I wasn't so careful.There are battered women? I've been eating 'em plain all of these years... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #16 February 10, 2004 QuoteCould it be that in rolling the nose/taking special measures in the pack job, the jumper is taking better care of the stabilizers and slider? I think you may be onto something here...www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blahr 0 #17 February 10, 2004 Its a very real difference. A rolled nose on my Sabre2 adds about 600 ft to the deployment and turns a nice brisk opening into a long snivel. I am a very careful packer so the rolled nose snivel is not a result of more careful packing. Its the rolled nose that does it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #18 February 10, 2004 There is no doubt us old farts (or at least this old fart) have a different definition of a hard opening. What newbies call a hard opening I call normal. What they call a soft opening I call a streamer that clears. One reason I didn't buy a Spectre was the 700 ft openings, terminal or hop and pop. Just to damn long for me. Especially when your getting out at 2000' and start hearing flat line on your TimeOut. Of course I'm an inch shorter than when I started jumping 24 years ago. Whether anyone can explain it or believes it, certain packing variations do effect certain canopy models or particular individual canopies. And I've had a couple of really hard openings. That's when you have to check your neck, and your shorts. When our DZ first got Vulcans for student canopies many years ago another JM went up to test one, and broke a rib on opening. Now that's hard.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gerrcoin 0 #19 February 10, 2004 When rolling the nose what you are really doing is closing the mouths of the cells and slowing the canopy inflation which,when combined with a correctly 'stowed'(?) slider will have a huge effect on the decceleration. This is most noticable with Zero P canopies where the air has no other method of getting into the cells. Rolling the tail will not have the same effect.However different methods of rolling the nose will have different effects. Rolling all the cells together will slow the opening initially but once they see the airflow they open together giving a greater shock. The method I use is to roll the outer cells on each side together towards the centre and hide the centre cell between them. Thus while the canopy is opening the centre cell will inflate first and the slider will begin to descend. The the rolls will work free as the canopy unfurls and the cells will inflate sequentally from the centre outwards towards the stabilisers. Personally I find that this makes for a reasonably gentle opening.Different canopies will behave in different ways the way I do it. The more rolls you put in and the tighter they are the longer the inflation takes. Too many and it snivels for longer. Try a few methods and regardless what the technical explainations are,stick with whatever works for you personally and for that particular canopy. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #20 February 10, 2004 QuoteIt seemed colse enough to see that a split second after the canopy came out of the bag, the nose was exposed. Did you see more than one deployment on video? One of anything as variable as deployments seems an improper basis for making a rule. -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Supergeil 0 #21 February 11, 2004 Stabilizers what is that???? Could someone please explain I properly know the word on Danish...but on English it's not saying me much! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny1488 1 #22 February 11, 2004 Thats why I was planning on doing a buch of videos of deyployments this year. I want to see the nose of the canopy still rolled and not exposed to air after it comes out of the bag. Johnny --"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!" Mike Rome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fireflyer 0 #23 February 11, 2004 albeit a newbie, i had the same thing happen on the sabre i use if i dont roll it well QuoteI have some black and blues on my inner thighs that appeared twice when I didn't roll my nose. Objectively speaking, the appearance of these little pain trophies and their absence when I roll the nose indicates it does make a difference, however so slight. I may give the dead chicken thing a try.... / Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #24 February 11, 2004 Much of packing nowadays is essentially voodoo. People start packing and have little control over the slider, the stow length etc and get crappy openings. Someone says "dude, roll the nose." They do and it doesn't help. Someone else says "dude, roll the hell out of the tail." They do and notice some improvement, because they're getting lots of practice at packing. So they figure wrapping the tail is good. After about 100 pack jobs, someone says "dude, stand on one foot." They do, and suddenly notice that their 101st pack job was much better than their 50th. Did standing on one foot do it, or did 50 more pack jobs make the difference? There are certain things you can do during pro-packing to help ensure consistent openings - ensuring that the slider is quartered and seated so it doesn't get trapped in an odd position (and thus not do its job of reefing) making sure the steering lines do not get around the nose, keeping the slider from moving down the lines, making reasonably tight stows etc. Tricks that help you get it into the bag with those parts of the pack job intact help provide more consistent (and generally softer) openings; rolling the tail is one example. It doesn't do much in and of itself, but it helps people control the slider when they put it in the bag, and that can make all the difference. Likewise, if you roll the nose and quarter the slider over it, and that helps you keep the lines in the center and the slider hard up against the stops, then you'll get better openings. But it's not because that 1.1 ounce fabric is going to hold that roll even a little bit when it hits the air. >When rolling the nose what you are really doing is closing the > mouths of the cells and slowing the canopy inflation . . . 1/10 second out of the bag, any organization you have given the nose is pretty much gone. 120mph of wind will destroy any careful folding and positioning of the nose. >This is most noticable with Zero P canopies where the air has no > other method of getting into the cells. Air "getting through" F111 isn't really an issue in parachute openings. We're talking a rate of tens of thousands of CFM during inflation; the 0-3cfm rate you get through F111 doesn't play much of a role unless you actually cut holes in the bottom of the canopy (which some BASE canopies do.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,590 #25 February 11, 2004 QuoteMuch of packing nowadays is essentially voodoo. Amen! I have three different canopies which I jump regularly, and I have packed all three the same way for the last 500 jumps. And all three have slammed me about 1% of the time, even the Diablo which normally snivels 700-1100 feet. Some time back I was in a discussion with a fellow jumper who is a forensic chemist for a police department. I was expounding on my opinion that if you were to measure the peak G forces of many openings of ANY canopy, you would see a bell curve with a few snivels and slammers at the tails of the curve. He nodded in agreement and solemnly stated: "Yes, plus or minus several standard deviations, it happens.""There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
