Toggles or Risers upon opening?

[Amanduh 0]

Okay, just curious on what percentage of BASE jumpers go directly to toggles upon an on heading opening, or would rather use their risers to steer away from the object before going to toggles (if time permits).

Reason for me 'polling' is because on both of mine, after launch my hands went into position to grab my risers if needed (palms back a few inches above shoulders). But as soon as the canopy inflated on heading, I was very fast to get the toggles in my hands to steer.

Just curious if some think this is a bad habit to get into.

[evilivan 0]

Caveat: far from an expert.

I go for risers first always, and voted that way. Having said that, if the heading is good I transfer almost immediately to toggles without actually putting any input into the risers. Basically the same as you....

Edited for muppet factor.

"If you can keep your head when all around you have lost theirs, then you probably haven't understood the seriousness of the situation."
David Brent

[JaapSuter 0]

This has been discussed many times before on this forum. If you do a search, you'll find plenty of discussion.

This thread is good, among others.

Personally, I found Slims video to be the most convincing in the toggle versus riser debate. If Slim can miss a toggle, I certainly can. Try to get a copy of it, it's probably on Skydivingmovies.com.

I'm a riser guy.

[Maxim 0]

I think the kind of jump has some contributing factor also. very low jump using risers could plow you into ground.

i guess also on a very low jump you could also just use risers to back your canopy up till you hit the ground.

/shrug

Life is Great. Even Greater what we do with it.

[JaapSuter 0]

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I think the kind of jump has some contributing factor also. very low jump using risers could plow you into ground.

This argument comes up everytime in this discussion, but I don't believe in it very much. Yes, in certain very specific situations like very underhung and low cliffs, perhaps using your risers could cause you to lose altitude too quickly and hit the slanted cliff face below you. I would argue that is still better than wasting time missing a toggle and hitting the vertical cliff face higher up.

Caveat; there are some people that believe they are excellent toggle grabbers and will always go for toggles. Most of them are highly experienced and are well entitled to have this opinion based on their skill.

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i guess also on a very low jump you could also just use risers to back your canopy up till you hit the ground.

Given a choice between hitting the object and then the ground, or hitting just the ground, I'd take the latter any day.

Besides, with proper body armour and good boots, I don't think stalling a canopy backwards into the ground is that big of a deal. Just PLF like a motherfucker and you might femur some shit or brake a tailbone, but overall you have a pretty good chance of living.

[dmcoco84 5]

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Personally, I found Slims video to be the most convincing in the toggle versus riser debate. If Slim can miss a toggle, I certainly can. Try to get a copy of it, it's probably on Skydivingmovies.com.

I'm a riser guy.

My thoughts exactly!

[Amanduh 0]

Thanks for all the information, Jaap (amongst everyone else as well).
I'll ask the crew if they happen to have the video, you just never know...

[dmcoco84 5]

Here ya go.

http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=2145

[Maxim 0]

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Personally, I found Slims video to be the most convincing in the toggle versus riser debate. If Slim can miss a toggle, I certainly can. Try to get a copy of it, it's probably on Skydivingmovies.com.

I'm a riser guy.

Even the best can screw up or just plain get unlucky. but iam fairly sure he was not using stiffy toggles that also add's a factor. i think its pretty bad logic to base one video on you choice in toggles vs risers. im sure you could dig up video of someone using risers in the same instance and fucking up.

Life is Great. Even Greater what we do with it.

[JaapSuter 0]

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i think its pretty bad logic to base one video on you choice in toggles vs risers.

A video of a person that, by that point, had over 800 base jumps without getting hurt, and was considered by many experienced jumpers to be a world-class jumpers. That, to me, means something.

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im sure you could dig up video of someone using risers in the same instance and fucking up.

I'm not sure if you can find video of someone using risers and missing them. That's the point here, he missed the toggles. What you do after grabbing either toggles or risers is another discussion. Aside from possible pendulum and forward surge effects, I think most people agree that toggle turns can be quicker. The problem is that they are easier to miss when you grab them.

[wwarped 0]

as mentioned above, this topic has been discussed on this forum numerous times. Johnny Utah has written a strong opinion. others disagree.

after reading the various thoughts, discuss what's best FOR YOU with your mentor and/or your instructor.

keep in mind:
- nothing beats experimenting off a friendly S...
- preferences can change with experience, object, and even gear familiarity.

with no consensus on this topic, I'd hate for you to use an anonymous poll as a deciding factor...

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[Amanduh 0]

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with no consensus on this topic, I'd hate for you to use an anonymous poll as a deciding factor...

Understandable. I would never base judgement off of an anonymous poll...I was just curious as to how most react after opening.

Thanks for the input

David, thank you so much for posting! That video took my breath away Holy ba-geebies!

For others: My questioning was based on an on heading opening. Slim had a 180 on the jump he missed the toggles...I completely understand your reasoning for that.

[lifewithoutanet 0]

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Reason for me 'polling' is because on both of mine, after launch my hands went into position to grab my risers if needed (palms back a few inches above shoulders). But as soon as the canopy inflated on heading, I was very fast to get the toggles in my hands to steer.

Just curious if some think this is a bad habit to get into.

Be careful with how you position your hands. 'Catching' your risers can result in broken digits, etc. All the same, I do something similar, but I typically reach further back, "almost into the tray", before the packjob is out of the container. I keep my hands low, close to the riser flaps and follow them up, almost like I'm reaching for my shoulder blades. I do this quick and keep my hands low and close enough so that I'm not going to interfere with the opening. I get made fun of for this, but it works for me. It does not affect my stability.

As for toggles vs. risers, I think the links and posts above are well worth reading.
-C.

[dmcoco84 5]

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David, thank you so much for posting! That video took my breath away Holy ba-geebies!

NP, Yea when I saw that I knew why so many people have told me they go for risers and not toggles first. I was also told that you should always go to risers first, building muscle memory, regardless of heading because that one time you have a 180 and you go to toggles and miss or you take too long to make a decision you will have a strike.

To each his own but I know when I get up on a tower or other objects, I’ll be on my risers first.

[Amanduh 0]

I completely understand your logic and had been thinking that the 'muscle memory' factor probably had something to do with most going straight to risers. It only makes sense.

Thanks!

[pBASEtobe 0]

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I get made fun of for this, but it works for me.

It is funny to see that's why. But like you said...whatever works for you.

[TomAiello 26]

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...A video of a person that, by that point, had over 800 base jumps...

I believe he had well over 1000 jumps at that point.

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...and was considered by many experienced jumpers to be a world-class jumper.

In all honesty, I'd only say that Slim was world class if "world class" was a group of 2 people who were head and shoulders above the rest.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[TomAiello 26]

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- nothing beats experimenting off a friendly S...
- preferences can change with experience, object, and even gear familiarity.

This is probably the bottom line on this topic.

Go out to a friendly span, and try each way (and variations) a dozen times. Then make a decision for yourself. Video and GPS are also useful in making this call, but in the end it's _your_ call, because it's your life, and the best way to make your call is to try things out for yourself.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[JaapSuter 0]

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I believe he had well over 1000 jumps at that point.

I thought so to, but wasn't entire sure, so I lowballed it.

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In all honesty, I'd only say that Slim was world class if "world class" was a group of 2 people who were head and shoulders above the rest.

I consider everybody with over a 1000 jumps a world-class jumper. That number will change eventually, but right now 1000 jumps is where my bar is. 200 makes you experienced. 500 makes you a survivor. 1000 makes you world-class. 1100 makes you a raging lunatic.

[vmsfreaky1 0]

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Okay, just curious on what percentage of BASE jumpers go directly to toggles upon an on heading opening, or would rather use their risers to steer away from the object before going to toggles (if time permits).

Reason for me 'polling' is because on both of mine, after launch my hands went into position to grab my risers if needed (palms back a few inches above shoulders). But as soon as the canopy inflated on heading, I was very fast to get the toggles in my hands to steer.

Just curious if some think this is a bad habit to get into.

I take it you mean Off heading opening? If i have an on heading i would not be heading towards the object.

Yeah, as other ppl have said this subject has been done to death on many forums, I'd advise you go through Blinc's archives as that is where i have found what i interpreted as the best course of action for said situation.

If i have misunderstood you completely I apologise.

For what its worth, in my extremeley limited and now quite dated base experience, I found that upon opening if i kept my hands firmly in my pockets I would have one last chance to touch myself before I hit the object and die.

My mentor at the time had only twenty base jumps and he wisely advised me during my debrief that hands in pockets on opening made me a sissy boy and i should harden the fuck up!

I responded that I only had twenty five skydives and that I had only found out what risers were as i was climbing the rail, I ran away in tears clutching my handbag muttering that he had hurt my feelings.

In the end I got another mentor, I don't like mean ppl.

However, I digress.

WTF do i know?!!

[Maxim 0]

you took my post out of context and quoted everything but the bit i wrote about stiffy toggles.

there is a big different missing toggles that lay nearly flat and stiffy toggly who present themself open to the user.

Life is Great. Even Greater what we do with it.

[JaapSuter 0]

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you took my post out of context and quoted everything but the bit i wrote about stiffy toggles.

My apologies if I made it seem that way. I fully agree with you that big-grab or stiffy toggles are easier to grab than the flat ones.

If anything, you took my original post out of contest. I wrote: "I found Slims video to be the most convincing in the toggle versus riser debate", thereby implying that I also have taken other factors into account, and that Slim's incident was merely the most convincing one. Then you replied and argued that I made my decision on just this one video ("i think its pretty bad logic to base one video on you choice in toggles vs risers").

Ah heck, fuck the semantics. I apologize I quoted your post without including the surrounding sentences.

For what it's worth, I've personally missed big-grab toggles on at least one jump at the Perrine, doing floaters trying to go for toggles instead of risers.

[Maxim 0]

hehe.

no need to apologize. the only thing i was trying to get across is keep an open mind.

i would neither say iam a toggle guy or riser guy.

Life is Great. Even Greater what we do with it.

[wwarped 0]

one thing to keep in mind when you finally go for the toggles...

in skydiving, people regularly deploy, reach for risers, transfer to toggles, and POP their toggles with a quick flick of their wrists. it works quite well.

don't do it on a BASE jump!

a friend did this with an off-heading right, but the canopy would NOT turn back to the left. amazingly, he landed unhurt in a boulder field. it should not have ended that way...

the problem was he POPPED his toggles and did not RELEASE HIS BRAKES. the little white riser loop sometimes just refuses to unthread through the brakeline fingertrap and the metal ring. I've seen it many times using the same brake setup on tandems.

after grabbing the toggles, they MUST be pulled down far enough to RELEASE the brake lines. you should feel tension in the lines.

attempting to steer with one toggle while the other line is still set is frustrating...

the bonus is when both toggles are pulled far enough to release both line sets, you gain the option of raising your arms slowly. this can eliminate any sudden forward surge.

DON'T PANIC
The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.
sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse

[TVPB 0]

an oldy but a goldie.

Another thread http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_threaded;post=1700560;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;

or

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_threaded;post=1700666;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;

Note that the above is just my opinion.

Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck

The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.