Joyner 0 #1 February 12, 2004 Hey there! To start off with I must attach a picture of my brand new Odyssey RSK.5, with a Katana 107 inside. First jump planned for this weekend. **Jumping up and down with excitement!!** The rig is an RSK.5 able to hold a 107 ZP-main according to Sun Path. With the cordura fabric I've heard it will "stretch" up 10% with use, so I guess this is a passing problem. When I put the bag in the container (fairly neat packjob getting the canopy in the bag), the bag still feels really big in the container. It is a TIGHT squeeze to flip the bag from the "lines towards the backpad", to the lines towards the bottom of the container position. I have found that closing the container it is just much easier to leave the bag in the "lines towards the backpad" position. The container closes just as neat, and I can use the same length of closing loop. I feel that getting the bag out of the container pulling on the bridle, it takes more force when I don't flip it over, than when I do. And I'm talking a massive amount of force compared to what I'm used to. The difference between fliping it and not isn't that big, but there is some difference. So my question really is, is there a possibility of a too tight fit between the bag and the container, causing a PC in tow. The bag is the original RSK.5 bag and both the main and reserve (PD-113) are within Sun Path specs. My previous rig was an Odyssey TJNK with a Stiletto 135 and a PD-126 reserve. That was also a rig with the largest recomended main in it, but it wasn't at all as tight as this is! It might not be a problem. But you sort of adapt to what your previous gear was like to the "standard" and anything that deviates from that is just weird and makes you wonder if it's right or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #2 February 12, 2004 If you can lift the rig off the ground with the bridle, there's a serious problem. If that's the case, lengthen the closing loop. If that results in a pin protector that won't close or exposed lines - the rig is too small for the parachute. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #3 February 12, 2004 It's not the closing loop that's stuck! The container opens before the rig lifts off the floor, but with the container open, the bag is stuck so hard in the container that I can lift it off the ground. Since the container is already open, I don't think lengthening the loop would make a difference, would it? I've heard that a PC in terminal velocity pulls at about 160lbs force. If that is the case, I don't think there is a problem. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pds 0 #4 February 12, 2004 im not a rigger.... if you can get the bag in the pocket, the bag will come out of the pocket. my .02namaste, motherfucker. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeeeeeeFly 0 #5 February 12, 2004 Do you think you could get a smaller D bag, that way it will fit in the container easier, and keep the Katana packed. That is if the canopy will fit in something smaller... just an idea G "The edge ... there is no honest way to explain it because the only people who know where it is are those that have gone over" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #6 February 12, 2004 Probably not that simple! I can put my full body weight on squeezing the darn thing in there. The question is if the PC has enough power to pull it out of there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #7 February 12, 2004 Smaller d-bag? No thanks! I still have to get the same size main in there. There is not much room to spare in the d-bag as it is. It's fresh out of Sun Path, and I am within specs, I'm just curious to see if they are all like this. I didn't expect it to be this tight since I put a 150 in my TJNK on several occasions and even then it wasn't as tight as this is, and that is one size too big if you trust Sun Path's numbers. IMHO generally you can put one size larger in the Odyssey than Sun Path say you can. But I'm pretty sure that wouldn't work on this one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #8 February 12, 2004 "I've heard that a PC in terminal velocity pulls at about 160lbs force." A 36" pilot chute, at 120 mph, pulls at about 120 lbs. A 27" pilot chute, at 120 mph, pulls only at about 56 lbs., if it is properly made, and in still in "trim". So whether or not your pilot chute will pull your bag out of a tight container depends on the size and construction method of your pilot chute...plus how fast you are going when you pull. Remember, someday you may have to do a fairly low emergency exit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #9 February 12, 2004 Side note, be cautious: Pay close attention to where your excess lines and your bite stows are when you are placing the dbag into the container and rotating it to close the container. With the tight fit, excess line has a greater potential to work itself around line stows as you are muscling the closing flaps shut. The "tight fit" that you mention can easily force excess (unstowed) suspension line in and around the bites. Just be meticulous when you place the dbag in each time and watch the lines as you close the container and you should be okay. Just something to think about. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #10 February 12, 2004 Thanks for the input! Mine is a 27". And I don't think that gives me much margin. I will hook it up at work tomorrow and see how much force is needed. The gear is brand new, so I'm hoping that everything is in trim (even if it is a rig from your competition ). I am hoping that a company like Sun Path has QA good enough to determine if the size of the container is out of spec. Is it true about the 10% stretch of the cordura fabric? If so, I don't think it'll be a problem in a few jumps. I'm just amazed that a new rig, with a canopy within the manufacturers recomendations can be so tight that it raises the question if 56lbs of force is enough to pull the bag out of the container. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #11 February 12, 2004 QuoteA 36" pilot chute, at 120 mph, pulls at about 120 lbs. A 27" pilot chute, at 120 mph, pulls only at about 56 lbs. Are we talking F-111 or Zero P? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #12 February 12, 2004 I've been packing and unpacking it 3 times tonight to to see if there was some truth to the stretching theory. The last time, the bag actually came loose before the rig left the ground. So I guess that would come to less than 20 lbs of force. I will try it a few more times before I jump it on Saturday, to make sure it wasn't a fluke. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #13 February 12, 2004 You are not supposed to rotate the bag in the K series Javs. Stick your lines in toward the backpad and leave the grommet up. That is how many, many of us have been packing the smaller javs for years now. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkymonkeyONE 4 #14 February 12, 2004 Another note: the USAPT Golden Knights FS team went to K series Odysseys last year and experienced QUITE A FEW pilot chutes in tow when they mistakenly rotated their bags. They were told, straight from the factory, not to rotate the bag. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #15 February 12, 2004 Thanks! That is some valuable information to say the least. Too bad they haven't put it in their manual yet! If they tell the Golden Knights not to rotate. Why not tell the rest of the world? I will start packing it grommet up from now on, and see how that works out! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #16 February 12, 2004 QuoteSo my question really is, is there a possibility of a too tight fit between the bag and the container, causing a PC in tow. I am not a rigger. Call the manufacturer and describe what is happening, and get their advice. The containers are usually intentionally designed with a "cup" shape on the corners, to hold the bag in place. The idea is that if your pin comes loose in freefall, the bag won't automatically float out into the air giving you a horseshoe malfunction. The bag is designed to stay in the container until yanked out by the pilot chute. However, how much force "should" be required to do that, I don't know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #17 February 12, 2004 I have only measured F-111 pilot chute drag. There shouldl be little difference when the F-111 is new. However, F-111 does gain porosity as it ages. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #18 February 12, 2004 Most newer rigs are being designed with the ability to have split corners that actually open the main container up more after pin tension is released. This will let the bag be carried out with a bit less resistance. Another option you may want to look at is getting the dynamic corners mod done to the rig now if you ever are considering wingsuit jumps. It will help then and it should take care of this issue also.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dgskydive 0 #19 February 12, 2004 One thing I have noticed about SunPath is that a lot of time they want you to take a smaller container then really is needed. I haven't heard of anybodies main not deploying as a result though. It would concern me if I could lift the rig off the ground and the pin was pulled but the bag stayed in the container. I bet it works fine......but better safe then sorry.Dom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #20 February 13, 2004 QuoteIt's not the closing loop that's stuck! The container opens before the rig lifts off the floor, but with the container open, the bag is stuck so hard in the container that I can lift it off the ground. I've had the same disscussion w/ Sunpath. When you do the pull test have someone else wear the rig and lay face down on the floor. BillBooth says: QuoteA 36" pilot chute, at 120 mph, pulls at about 120 lbs. A 27" pilot chute, at 120 mph, pulls only at about 56 lbs., If the design spec for a properly sized container is to release the bag w/ at least 56lbs of pull you may be able to lift a 20-25lb rig off the floor. That's why you'll need a friend to wear the rig for the test. If you're uncomfortable w/ the amount of force it takes to pull the bag out of the container, get the larger pc. Ken"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rmsmith 1 #21 February 13, 2004 QuoteThe rig is an RSK.5 able to hold a 107 ZP-main according to Sun Path. With the cordura fabric I've heard it will "stretch" up 10% with use, so I guess this is a passing problem. Tell 'ya what, I've got an old Spectre 107 with plenty of jumps on it making the fabric easy to pack. I'll trade 'ya straight up, one 'fer one, for that Katana! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #22 February 13, 2004 Quote Tell 'ya what, I've got an old Spectre 107 with plenty of jumps on it making the fabric easy to pack. I'll trade 'ya straight up, one 'fer one, for that Katana! Oohhh, OOhh, can we??? Thanks for everyone's input. But the rig is actually at the point now that I can't lift it off the ground anymore. So I think I'll be fine. I guess there is some truth to that cordura stretches Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #23 February 13, 2004 First question: is your Katana brand new? Remember that brand new ZP canopies seem 20% fluffier than the same canopy with 100 jumps. Yes, dynamic corners will help with deployment, but if the rig is as tight as you say, may require an extra couple of minutes "massaging" to close. The 9 foot bridles - currently fashionable with wing-suit flyers - will definitely help with deployments. Finally, that tiny rig makes your butt look HUGE! Hah! Hah! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyner 0 #24 February 15, 2004 Worked like a charm 6 times this weekend, both subterminal and terminal. No hesitation at all! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
