Stuck Pilot Chute

[davevans 0]

On a jump today I guess I didn't pack the PC as well as I should have and it stuck on deployment. I was about to pull the reserve but I finally got it deployed at 3k. I have had two contradicting response as to what I should have done if I was unable to ever get the main deployed. The first person said to just pull the reserve because the main wasn't out, the other said cut free and then pull the reserve. The second person's point of view was that even though the main was still in the container with the closing pin still in, if I was under the reserve and somehow the PC came out of the BOC pouch, it could have deployed the main and left me with a 2 out situation. My question is, what is the most recommended approach of the two

[DaVinciflies 0]

I will leave the discussions as to what you should have done to others more qualified, but you might want to take a look at this video by Brian Germain from a prevention point-of-view:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axCeYlY_6io

[NovaTTT 2]

First of all, I am not an instructor. This is just my opinion based on my time and experience in the sport.

That said, you need a permanent, workable deployment procedure and definate EPs. The first step in a permanent, workable deployment procedure is a good packjob, which includes a well and properly packed PC.

First, use the Rule of Threes. If you can't find or pull your main handle, check or try two more times (three attempts).

If that doesn't work, go directly to your reserve.

Taking time to deal with a non-existant problem (cutaway from what?) is using valuable time and complicating an otherwise very simple decision tree.

No main = total malfunction = pull your reserve.

Your priority is to get a good parachute overhead. You've probably heard that pull-time is pull-time and your first priority is to pull. Period.

If you get two out then deal with that. If it makes you happy to pull the cutaway handle do so after your reserve is fully deployed.

Talk this over with your instructor.

Blues.

Nova

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[davevans 0]

Thanks Nova, to be honest I never thought about pulling the cutaway handle after the reserve was out.

[labrys 0]

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My question is, what is the most recommended approach of the two

The SIM recommends a reserve deployment (no cutaway)

Owned by Remi #?

[labrys 0]

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Thanks Nova, to be honest I never thought about pulling the cutaway handle after the reserve was out.

Just in case you interpreted that as a suggestion to pull your cutaway handle after the reserve was out but the main had not deployed:

You wouldn't want to pull your cutaway handle after reserve deployment unless your main was also already out, and then only if the canopies are side by side with plenty of room between them or in a down-plane.

Owned by Remi #?

[Bertt 0]

I've seen two cases where a skydiver couldn't get the PC out. Both pulled the reserve without cutting away. Both landed fine under reserve with no other problems.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[NovaTTT 2]

@ Remster

Yes - the situation the OP discussed, total with PC in pouch


@ Labrys

OP can pull his cutaway after the reserve is deployed. It's only marginally different than pulling it prior to going silver, other than that time/altitude thing.

But he should first talk with his instructor as mentioned, who will advise him on the pros and cons, the equipment concerns (RSL), &c.

FWIW my personal preference is to leave the cutaway alone even with two out unless it gets ugly. Haven't had to put that to the test, however.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[Andy9o8 2]

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I have had two contradicting response as to what I should have done if I was unable to ever get the main deployed. The first person said to just pull the reserve because the main wasn't out, the other said cut free and then pull the reserve.

You had a total malfunction. The argument in favor of cutting away first is to give you one set of EPs for every situation, so you don't hesitate. I do not agree with this approach.

The other approach, to which I subscribe, is that when you're in freefall with no main out, taking time to pull your cutaway handle is wasting precious time and altitude - at freefall speed - pulling the one handle that will not save your life. Thus, in case of a total malfunction, this approach says go straight to reserve. I take this approach to a pilot chut in tow, too, which I consider to be "close enough" to a total malfunction to be treated like one.

That being said: That's just my opinion. I'm not an instructor, and I'm not your coach. Speak to your own instructors.

[labrys 0]

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OP can pull his cutaway after the reserve is deployed. It's only marginally different than pulling it prior to going silver, other than that time/altitude thing.

If you cut away with the main still in the container, and it deploys after the fact, I believe there's a chance it could foul the reserve. I don't know what the odds are that it would just fall freely away in its bag vs have enough force on the lines and risers as they clear the container and the reserve risers, etc to come out of its bag and make life miserable.

The only thing I think would suck worse that a 2-out entanglement is a 2-out entanglement with your main fouling the reserve and completely out of your control because you've cut it away.

What are the odds that is you haven't thrown your hackey, your main will suddenly deploy? I'm willing to bet they are very, very small.

Owned by Remi #?

[Divalent 135]

[replyWhat are the odds that if you haven't thrown your hackey, your main will suddenly deploy? I'm willing to bet they are very, very small.

[DSE 5]

Expect some debate. High speed mal, nothing out, I teach students to pull silver.
Once under a proper flying canopy, I recommend putting the cutaway handle in case the closing pin has dislodged and the main is at risk of falling out and causing a 2 out.
Read your SIM, it has good information in it.

[adolfocamerano 0]

this is what happends if you don't find the handle and you don't cutaway before open the reserve. this happened to my friend

[kawisixer01 0]

You are a student....what does you instructor say? Does your instructor refer to the SIM or does the DZ have their own text for student progression? Many schools prefer to teach their students ONE procedure (pull all handles) for simplicity and so there is no thinking about it that could slow an already indicisive student down. Right now if I were you i'd be talking to my instructor, not going to the web to talk to anonymous people whom you have no idea what their experience and motives are. Many things we do in skydiving are personal decisions that are made after much research and weighing on options. These decisions should be made after you are much further along and more educated than student status.

[popsjumper 2]

After a hard pull and a reserve deployment, I'm keeping my main intact. I'm not throwing away any opportunity to save my butt if I don't have to. If the reserve fails, I'll be fighting like a wild man to get the main out....good thing I still had it connected, eh?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[dragon2 2]

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After a hard pull and a reserve deployment, I'm keeping my main intact. I'm not throwing away any opportunity to save my butt if I don't have to. If the reserve fails, I'll be fighting like a wild man to get the main out....good thing I still had it connected, eh?

I know a girl who did exactly that.

Smallish girl. Stuck PC. Couldn't get it out, went to silver. Couldn't get silver pulled all the way!!! Fought like hell to pull it, finally went back to PC and got that out eventually.


Turned out there was a gear/rigging error. The 2pin reserve was rigged so when the first pin got free it then got hung up on the housing, preventing pulling of the second pin. She damaged/scratched the housing enough to prove this...

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[-ftp- 0]

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After a hard pull and a reserve deployment, I'm keeping my main intact. I'm not throwing away any opportunity to save my butt if I don't have to. If the reserve fails, I'll be fighting like a wild man to get the main out....good thing I still had it connected, eh?

Like this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49M8hD472_I

Just imagine if he had cutaway before deploying his reserve.

[DaVinciflies 0]

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Like this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49M8hD472_I

Just imagine if he had cutaway before deploying his reserve.

He might have been better of as the reserve might not have entangled his main, and the departing main entangled with the reserve pc could have acted like a MARD/Skyhook.

[might/maybe]

[popsjumper 2]

Not the same situation.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[-ftp- 0]

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Like this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49M8hD472_I

Just imagine if he had cutaway before deploying his reserve.

He might have been better of as the reserve might not have entangled his main, and the departing main entangled with the reserve pc could have acted like a MARD/Skyhook.

[might/maybe]

maybe-- but I highly doubt it.

The bottom line, his main is what ended up saving his ass, if it were cutaway, it is very likely it would have ended differently.

[Skyper 0]

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Like this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49M8hD472_I

Just imagine if he had cutaway before deploying his reserve.

He might have been better of as the reserve might not have entangled his main, and the departing main entangled with the reserve pc could have acted like a MARD/Skyhook.

[might/maybe]

maybe-- but I highly doubt it.

The bottom line, his main is what ended up saving his ass, if it were cutaway, it is very likely it would have ended differently.

I wonder what would have happened if he reached with his hand back and pulled the bridle and release the pin of the main. How big is the chance that the main would open correctly?

[popsjumper 2]

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Quote

Like this guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=49M8hD472_I

Just imagine if he had cutaway before deploying his reserve.

He might have been better of as the reserve might not have entangled his main, and the departing main entangled with the reserve pc could have acted like a MARD/Skyhook.

[might/maybe]

You are missing the fact that the main was not out at the time of the reserve deployment. There was no main to "acted like a MARD/Skyhook". The main came out after the reserve deployment.

IMO, had he cut away the main, the likelihood of a total entanglement involving both chutes is very, very high.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jjudd 0]

negative because had he chopped it there would have been no line stretch on the main to pull the canopy from the d bag. it may have still come out due to the to pc's tangling but not opening would have been likely. It would have cleared with the reserve freebag in the event the pc still remained entangled. there was a better option. thank god that went the way it did

[popsjumper 2]

It started out as a PCIT.
Then it changed to something radically different.
You did notice that the main PC was choked off, right?
Do you think the main would have come out with the PC choked off like that? How would a cutaway affected that? What do you think pulled the main out? Did you notice that the reserve PC was entangled with the main PC?

You may want to re-think on that.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[DaVinciflies 0]

I may be missing something here, but here is my understanding of what happened - please feel free to add your interpretations if different:

1. Bridle wrapped main PC reducing drag enough to fail to pull main pin.
2. Reserve ripcord pulled
3. Reserve PC wrapped main PC
4. Combined drag of main and reserve PC pulled main pin
5. Main deployed faster than reserve resulting in reserve bag being hung up in the lines of the main.

Where I was going with the MARD idea was that if the jumper had cutaway the main it MIGHT have pulled the reserve PC/bridle/freebag assembly clear of the reserve which could then have deployed.

On the other hand the main lines could have remained wrapped around the reserve in the bag and then the situation would have been much worse.