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QuoteThe "skydiving mentality" of which I refer...
You mean like hookturning after a 180 foot PCA?
Jealous much, Jaap?
-C.
-C.
FIREFLYR 0
QuoteJust leave your skydiving mentality at the door.
Cheers,
-C.
I had no idea that there was a friction between skydivers and base jumpers. I have been thinking of base jumping for some years, just recently I have been thinking of not much else, I have been doing my research and thinking of booking a FJC. After one day of reading BASE forums i think i have changed my mind.
I have to borrow this quote from Avery........
Hello,
If you are already disappointed,
you aren't tough enough for BASE.
Please call your mom to pick you up.
God bless you,
~J
"One flew East,and one flew West..............one flew over the cuckoo's nest"
"There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act"
"There's absolutely no excuse for the way I'm about to act"
sabre210 0
Quote. Bad karma comes from doing nasty things.
Absolutely, and if you go around fucking things up for a lot of other people then according to your karma principle you're due to be fucked up yourself. That's what was being suggested. Removing a disrespectful jumpers means of constantly pissing off other people. The confiscation or destruction of their rig.
I asked you in that thread what recourse is left to base jumpers who have to tolerate the constant barrage of disrespect from an errant jumper once they have asked, explained and even pleaded with another jumper to curtail their day blazing, video posting, site naming ways.
You suggested the following. Exclusion! FRom what??? You suggested blacklisting their number (not their name, their number). Blacklisting them from what and what if they turn up after they have been blacklisted, blacklist them even more? You even suggested fining them. Under what/whose authority?
Your solutions are those of someone who has absolutely no grasp of what they are talking about. None whatsoever. They are the reiterations of an institutionalised sheep. YOU STILL DO NOT GET IT. AT ALL.
Once all the reasonable routes have been exhausted, once this inconsiderate jumper has made it absolutely clear that they will not comply with reasonable requests, all that is left is force. That can range from stopping someone physically climbing onto an object. taking their rig, or pummelling them into a bloody mess, but all require the use of some level of physical restraint.
Physical force or restraint isn't a pleasant option and should be seen as a last resort, but the options are either do nothing and allow the authorities to forcefully prevent us all jumping an object or forcefully prevent that from happening. When someone refuses point blank to play by the little rules we all implicitly agree to then i fail to see any other viable option.
You of all people (as a police officer) are required constantly to utilise force to bring about control. You constantly use restraint. You constantly remove the means to reoffend by destruction or confiscation. You constantly restrict the freedom of others (yes righteously in most cases) to prevent further damage or injury.
You not only understand and condone the use of reasonable force, you employ it on a daily basis, yet you righteously, piously post on here, trying to bad mouth and discredit some of the most considerate, likeable, helpful caring BASE jumpers in the UK.
You called us tossers. Hey, that's fine. I can deal with that cos you know what?, i need you and your opinions like i need 180 off a cliff.
Hey and let's not forget, it was this tosser who took the time to respond to your plea for help for jumpers in your area for advice on BASE, it was this tosser who rang and talked to your mates FJC coach to get an idea of his ability and experience and how that might help me give him the best possible advice, and it was this tosser who contacted you the other day to meet and talk.
Sam, you're entitled to your opinions, and as a law enforcement agent, i would expect you to have strong opinions, and like i said in that thread ' no hard feelings' but to come on here and bad mouth us and call us tossers is just stunning in it's audacity and contempt.
You have no frame of reference for BASE. You simply do not understand, and you just don't appreciate the gravity and seriousness of what's involved. The next few days might make you realise what the stakes are.
ian - a london jumper and a very non violent person.
Here's just my 0.02c on the current situation ...
Firstly it's almost impossible to maintain rules in an unregulated sport.
There is a certain degree of self regulation which used to be more effective because of the very limited choices that existed to a potential newbie looking at starting base (it was relatively easy to control their access to information / tuition and equipment).
Nowadays information (objects / technical info etc) is easier to obtain and instruction and equipment is easier to obtain.
So the "old" system of self regulation is increasingly under pressure from those who would ignore / abuse the system or those with perhaps a commercial or other interest.
The options left seem to be either:-
DIRECT ACTION - which includes the suspension of access to equipment of prevention of access to an object (perhaps due to mobility issues such as broken limbs) ....
Or INDIRECT ACTION which is the more difficult option but involves groups of all those people who maybe affected by all the negative effects of these un-educated / headstrong jumpers (often who are learning without guidance) ... Grouping together and taking a collective responsibility to try and educate those that are following along this path.
Perhaps prospective new jumpers on a commercial course could have to produce a reference from a local jumper prepared to take responsibility for the new jumper - this would also only work if those current jumpers within an area also took an active responsibility and interest in those wishing to learn ... It would be no longer possible for someone to say "well thanks for all my tuition but i do not feel able to be responsible for another person" but would instead put the onus on the current jumpers to support the locals who wish to teach and train.
Options include
1. To try and govern by force - which is difficult both morally and effectively
2. To try and govern by influence to show by example and leadership the path that is recommended so all involved in the sport have a standard to try and achieve.
3. To accept the status quo and drift through this situation with no ability to determine the outcome - often with a great deal of ineffectual bitching and self congratulation
4 To try and wash your hands of the situation - although eventually the sum of everyone else's actions will eventually effect you
5 Move to NZ - it's a great country .... ;-)
One thing i think everyone will agree with is that the situation will not just simply go away and perhaps it is time for the whole community to try and find a simple set of arrangements that will safe-guard the future if the sport for the next generations, because as much as we owe those that blazed a path before us, perhaps it is our responsibility to ensure a future for those who follow ....
One thing that is certain .... those who aare forced into a postion where force seems the only option are generally not the type of people who wish to inflict harm randomly on innocents but are often simply normal, rational individuals who are passionate about our sport who have often simply run out of options and would happily consider any viable alternative that can be presented ....
Perhaps a wiser person than me can suggest a reasonable and effective alternative to the simple method of controlling access to sites and equipment ....
Now i'm off to try and re-pack before my head hurts too much ....
Firstly it's almost impossible to maintain rules in an unregulated sport.
There is a certain degree of self regulation which used to be more effective because of the very limited choices that existed to a potential newbie looking at starting base (it was relatively easy to control their access to information / tuition and equipment).
Nowadays information (objects / technical info etc) is easier to obtain and instruction and equipment is easier to obtain.
So the "old" system of self regulation is increasingly under pressure from those who would ignore / abuse the system or those with perhaps a commercial or other interest.
The options left seem to be either:-
DIRECT ACTION - which includes the suspension of access to equipment of prevention of access to an object (perhaps due to mobility issues such as broken limbs) ....
Or INDIRECT ACTION which is the more difficult option but involves groups of all those people who maybe affected by all the negative effects of these un-educated / headstrong jumpers (often who are learning without guidance) ... Grouping together and taking a collective responsibility to try and educate those that are following along this path.
Perhaps prospective new jumpers on a commercial course could have to produce a reference from a local jumper prepared to take responsibility for the new jumper - this would also only work if those current jumpers within an area also took an active responsibility and interest in those wishing to learn ... It would be no longer possible for someone to say "well thanks for all my tuition but i do not feel able to be responsible for another person" but would instead put the onus on the current jumpers to support the locals who wish to teach and train.
Options include
1. To try and govern by force - which is difficult both morally and effectively
2. To try and govern by influence to show by example and leadership the path that is recommended so all involved in the sport have a standard to try and achieve.
3. To accept the status quo and drift through this situation with no ability to determine the outcome - often with a great deal of ineffectual bitching and self congratulation
4 To try and wash your hands of the situation - although eventually the sum of everyone else's actions will eventually effect you
5 Move to NZ - it's a great country .... ;-)
One thing i think everyone will agree with is that the situation will not just simply go away and perhaps it is time for the whole community to try and find a simple set of arrangements that will safe-guard the future if the sport for the next generations, because as much as we owe those that blazed a path before us, perhaps it is our responsibility to ensure a future for those who follow ....
One thing that is certain .... those who aare forced into a postion where force seems the only option are generally not the type of people who wish to inflict harm randomly on innocents but are often simply normal, rational individuals who are passionate about our sport who have often simply run out of options and would happily consider any viable alternative that can be presented ....
Perhaps a wiser person than me can suggest a reasonable and effective alternative to the simple method of controlling access to sites and equipment ....
Now i'm off to try and re-pack before my head hurts too much ....
The gear is different, to the point that there are contradictory effects in BASE vs. skydiving gear from the application of similar pieces of equipment.
The freefall is different.
The canopy flight is dramatically different.
And most importantly, there's no FAA, no regulating body.
The "skydiving mentality" of which I refer is one that typically includes some thoughts of regulation or certifications or requirements to protect people from themselves. It's especially common of "open-minded" newer jumpers--who don't realize why so many people are "trying to keep them out of BASE jumping"--with a desire to meet some basic requirements that PROVES that they're ready to jump from a fixed object. There's no place for that kind of regulation or certification in BASE. The USPA model is flawed in this application. Regulation plays to the lowest common denominator and if you're not smart enough to realize the consequences without these formal controls, you need to reevaluate your approach to BASE.
I heard the following, early in my very young BASE career: "Skydiving may very well be the thing that kills BASE." Few simple statements ring so true.
-C.
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