Mikki_ZH 0 #1 June 7, 2006 What's up Jaap? Why did you close basewiki??? http://www.basewiki.com/Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pBASEtobe 0 #2 June 7, 2006 Hey, my get-well-carrot! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
avenfoto 0 #3 June 7, 2006 maybe a verifiable acct/pw accout would be better... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cornishe 0 #4 June 7, 2006 you cant speakie engrish? "If knowledge dispels fear and fear keeps people from jumping Then BASE WIKI is the last thing we need" he no wanty peoples jumpy jumpy after reading wiki and get smasheed upeed. -amAbbie Mashaal Skydive Idaho Snake River Skydiving TandemBASE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mikki_ZH 0 #5 June 7, 2006 whatever...Michi (#1068) hsbc/gba/sba www.swissbaseassociation.ch www.michibase.ch Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #6 June 8, 2006 Quote "If knowledge dispels fear and fear keeps people from jumping Then BASE WIKI is the last thing we need" Is this history repeating itself? Like NickDG stopped updating the fatality list for a while sometime ago... Kris. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JaapSuter 0 #7 June 8, 2006 I'll put forward a statement in the near future. It's not down permanently yet. I suspect it'll be back up in fact, but I have to talk to some people first. Apologies.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #8 June 8, 2006 If I let a bit time go by after a BASE fatality occurs before listing it, it’s either because there aren't any solid facts available, or because the person was a friend and it’s too depressing to add them. But I've never really stopped updating the List since the first time it was published in 1989. Recently a young BASE jumper I met called me the "Grim Reaper" and that really hurt - As the main reason for the List is to keep young jumpers away from the Grim Reaper. But I laughed at him and said, "No, I'm not the Grim Reaper, I'm just his administrative assistant . . . " NickD BASE 194 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JaapSuter 0 #9 June 8, 2006 What's interesting is that the fatality list is by far the most educational tool available to the BASE community, if not the only one. Only the carnage-tape may be doing a better job. And therein lies my struggle; is BASE WIKI just a lame attempt at making the sport seem scientifically controllable? The Memorial day weekend proved to me -more than my own incidents- that we're all just rolling the dice. Nearly all accidents are explicable in hindsight, but a priori we don't have a clue. It just seems that way, and statistics are on our side. Up till now, I've been catering to the following people... "I'm going to get into BASE, no matter what! Oh wait, there's this free information available on the internet. Let's read that, that could be useful." As of late, I've been wondering how many of those people there really are. I think there are much more of the following people... "I don't think BASE is for me. It's much too dangerous! ... Hey wait a second, look at the forums. They're all having so much fun and they sound like they know what they're doing. Holy crap, look at this wiki site, it's like an encyclopedia that tells you what you need to do to not die. I'm totally gonna try BASE!" The former have always existed and will continue to exist in small numbers. The latter group is the monster we have created over the past few years, and it's the group we really need to be afraid of. I know, because I'm part of that group. My apologies to all the old schoolers who do comprehend what they bargain for every time they leave an object. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JaapSuter 0 #10 June 8, 2006 QuoteHey, my get-well-carrot! Indeed, but it's Shannon's get-well-carrot too. Shortly before her back operation I promised her I'd send a get-well-card. She misread card as carrot and asked me why in the hell I'd send her a carrot. And so I did... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #11 June 9, 2006 Quote"I don't think BASE is for me. It's much too dangerous! ... Hey wait a second, look at the forums. They're all having so much fun and they sound like they know what they're doing. Holy crap, look at this wiki site, it's like an encyclopedia that tells you what you need to do to not die. I'm totally gonna try BASE!" ...The latter group is the monster we have created over the past few years, and it's the group we really need to be afraid of. I disagree. The people who actually read all that information on the internet are far less worrisome than the people who have no idea that it even exists. The guys I worry about are these: "I don't think BASE is for me...but my buddy says it's all good, and he's cool. I don't see any information anywhere that says he's wrong. I guess it really is so easy a bag of dog food could do it. Woohoo! Here we go!-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites brits17 0 #12 June 9, 2006 Quote I disagree. The people who actually read all that information on the internet are far less worrisome than the people who have no idea that it even exists. The guys I worry about are these: "I don't think BASE is for me...but my buddy says it's all good, and he's cool. I don't see any information anywhere that says he's wrong. I guess it really is so easy a bag of dog food could do it. Woohoo! Here we go! What he said. When I showed a whuffo friend a few links on basewiki, it totally sparked his interest to research it hard-core before doing it. He's now starting to skydive with following proper 'procedures' for 'getting into base.' Your site was a help, not a hindrance. Just fyi. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites dmcoco84 5 #13 June 9, 2006 QuoteYour site was a help, not a hindrance. Just fyi. I agree! I found it very beneficial. Coco Share this post Link to post Share on other sites John_Scher 0 #14 June 9, 2006 Jaap, We do not have an "in country" mentor and are therefore very grateful for sound knowledge repository's such as Tom Aiello, Base Wiki and the good will of this forum. We appreciate that there are other ethical issues at hand but from our somewhat polarized point of view, firmly vote in favor of re-enabling the Wiki. Regards John & Mark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites bandar_hamid 0 #15 June 9, 2006 Hello, I would like to say that BASEwiki is a very good site. For people like me are having no contact with outside skydiver or jumper from my country it is very benefit to have this information. Internet is one of the only ways I can get information. A place with central information is extremely important and I learned high information from basewiki, it help me to understand that many jump I make was dangerous, and gived me insight to how other people jump. It maybe that I am what you describe as type that you dont want to jump, I live in iran, not many chance for regular skydive, but lots of cliff, but I jump because if I dont fly then I have nothing else. For me all information makes jump safer, all information helps to make more understand. People I think should be free to make life descision by themselve, I dont think anyone think BASE is not dangerus, if they do BASE and you deny information they may die because of no informattion rather than die because they make descision to try BASE. -Hamid Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TVPB 0 #16 June 9, 2006 Nick You are just recording facts and anecdotes. You are not creating them. Keep up the good work. I for one, do appreciate your efforts. The young person you mention is showing obvious signs of fear and he does not appreciate the reality check. After all, this shit is supposed to be cool, not dangerous. And "if I don't know anything up front, I will have no time to worry about it as I am going in". Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TVPB 0 #17 June 9, 2006 Information is important Jaap. If there is nothing there, then newbies have nothing to BASE their decisions on. Reivention occurs. Fundamental repetition occurs. People make the same silly mistakes due to lack of information. This is not a good outcome / scenario. If there IS something there, they have the opportunity to use the information in a positive / productive / affective / safe manner. People can use the information in conjunction with coaching from qualified persons in a controlled learning environment. We have issues with the quality of some of our teachers. We have issues with the qualty of some of our students. This will always be an issue regardless of what you or I or anyone else produces. The bottom line is that they are adults and are responsible for their own actions. Do not remove the information. There are many people who will use it properly and it will benefit their lives and evolution in this sport. Those that do not use it properly will inevitably stuff up whether the info is there or not. Cater to those that are common sense, suitably motivated, and respectful of what they are doing. The others have both the opportunity and ability to derive the same benefits from your information. Don't deny the former. The latter have made decisions that you have NO control over. Keep up the good work. Tom Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDaemon 0 #18 June 9, 2006 Jaap, I respect your decision to remove the basewiki.com website. When information is protected and hard to obtain those who desire it go to substantial lengths to acquire it. It filters on the quality of individual who is willing to invest the time and effort to seek out those with said information about an otherwise underground (and extremely dangerous) sport. Placing the "how to" guide in the hands of the masses often leads to each member of the masses gaining a sense of confidence due to their reading things such as these forums or the basewiki.com. The 'script-kiddies' that are the mosquitos of my industry are a prime example of how ignorant people can get ahold of just enough information to damage themselves and those around them. While an argument can be made that placing all information in the public domain, readily and easily available is 'good' one has to define what 'good' is. I think you properly illustrated the argument against it in your post. To address the fatality list, it serves to discourage individuals from jumping while this forum and the basewiki seem to indirectly encourage people to jump. The hype of what the 'cool kids' are up to in the 'BASE community' intrigues and appeals to many, and could be considered to 'market' the sport. Providing quick and easy information about the sport, someone could assume they have the skills and confidence to approach the sport independently, or worse talk authoratively about it to others. Perhaps this is how the 'bad Jacks' are born (allusion to a recent post of Nick's). Many from dz.commers (and the general public) peruse this forum and find 'getting into base' is becoming easier and easier. (as is demonstrated by the explosion in BASE numbers and new jumpers) The message you posted on the wiki seems to spell out the position well, and I find it makes sense. The information is important to have... but that doesn't mean it has be written down and posted on the internet. There are other ways to preserve the value of the information without making a website about it. At the end of the day it's your call, although if you don't repost it, someone else may. Installing wiki software is relatively easy, and more than likely someone will eventually duplicate your attempt. Best of luck with your decision. -=Raistlinfind / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer; Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sabre210 0 #19 June 9, 2006 Jaap Only you know why you choose to run the BASE wiki. If your intentions are genuine and honourable then continue to do it. Bottom line is, if just one person reads it and takes heed of some important piece of knowledge (no matter how trivial it may seem, or how obvious it may appear) and in doing so it saves them making a fundamental error and perhaps paying with their life, then i guess you could consider it worthwhile. BASE is constantly evolving, simultaneously for the better and for the worse, and sometimes it does feel like the lunatics have taken over the asylum, but evolution is a wonderful process. Only the successful lines and successful methods survive in the longer term and that is perhaps what BASE wiki is essentially about : championing that which works, and discrediting that which doesn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites KrisFlyZ 0 #20 June 9, 2006 Nick, I understand perfectly the need to wait before updating the list. I not been around in the sport long enough to have noticed a lapse in update times of the list...It is probably a post made by you or someone else if the list should be continued to be updated. For some reason I had this thought in my mind that you had a similar dilemma a while ago. Kris. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites wwarped 0 #21 June 9, 2006 QuoteWhat's interesting is that the fatality list is by far the most educational tool available to the BASE community, if not the only one. Only the carnage-tape may be doing a better job. And therein lies my struggle; is BASE WIKI just a lame attempt at making the sport seem scientifically controllable? first off, thanks for the effort, but we will never make BASE scientifically controllable. "the list" remains a sobering read. it should dampen the enthusiasm of anyone interested in BASE. basewiki is not nearly as sobering, but it isn't very exciting either. it is a reference tool like a library or dictionary. it is best suited for those willing to put in effort. personally, I find all the "kewl" BASE videos far more bothersome. they get novices all excited and pumped. the experts captured on camera can make things look amazingly easy, and rarely show the time involved in planning. "heck, anyone can do it! let's skip the training, I can already do THAT!" this last group will forever keep BASE from being "scientifically controllable." their enthusiasm simply outpaces their skills. DON'T PANIC The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse Share this post Link to post Share on other sites HydroGuy 0 #22 June 9, 2006 Quote"If knowledge dispels fear and fear keeps people from jumping Then BASE WIKI is the last thing we need" BASE wiki has got to be better than thisGet in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NickDG 23 #23 June 9, 2006 One bad part of doing the List is receiving emails like this one I just got today . . . Fr: tony encinas >>hey dumb fuck,doesnt this tell you something?just dont jump.U got got a death wish or what?please record your death on film ......sincerley me<< The List generates these types of emails all the time . . . It doesn’t hurt me, but it does make me sad there are such hateful and ignorant people like this in the world . . . NickD BASE 194 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nicrussell 0 #24 June 9, 2006 Im hoping you didnt (dont) respond to these type of emails. Looks like a waste of valuable time. Nic (was glad to share a drink with you in Twin.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites hookitt 1 #25 June 9, 2006 I'll bet he doesn't waste his time but I'll be about 100 people that read Nick's message will reply on his behalf.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 0
TomAiello 26 #11 June 9, 2006 Quote"I don't think BASE is for me. It's much too dangerous! ... Hey wait a second, look at the forums. They're all having so much fun and they sound like they know what they're doing. Holy crap, look at this wiki site, it's like an encyclopedia that tells you what you need to do to not die. I'm totally gonna try BASE!" ...The latter group is the monster we have created over the past few years, and it's the group we really need to be afraid of. I disagree. The people who actually read all that information on the internet are far less worrisome than the people who have no idea that it even exists. The guys I worry about are these: "I don't think BASE is for me...but my buddy says it's all good, and he's cool. I don't see any information anywhere that says he's wrong. I guess it really is so easy a bag of dog food could do it. Woohoo! Here we go!-- Tom Aiello Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com SnakeRiverBASE.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #12 June 9, 2006 Quote I disagree. The people who actually read all that information on the internet are far less worrisome than the people who have no idea that it even exists. The guys I worry about are these: "I don't think BASE is for me...but my buddy says it's all good, and he's cool. I don't see any information anywhere that says he's wrong. I guess it really is so easy a bag of dog food could do it. Woohoo! Here we go! What he said. When I showed a whuffo friend a few links on basewiki, it totally sparked his interest to research it hard-core before doing it. He's now starting to skydive with following proper 'procedures' for 'getting into base.' Your site was a help, not a hindrance. Just fyi. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 5 #13 June 9, 2006 QuoteYour site was a help, not a hindrance. Just fyi. I agree! I found it very beneficial. Coco Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
John_Scher 0 #14 June 9, 2006 Jaap, We do not have an "in country" mentor and are therefore very grateful for sound knowledge repository's such as Tom Aiello, Base Wiki and the good will of this forum. We appreciate that there are other ethical issues at hand but from our somewhat polarized point of view, firmly vote in favor of re-enabling the Wiki. Regards John & Mark Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bandar_hamid 0 #15 June 9, 2006 Hello, I would like to say that BASEwiki is a very good site. For people like me are having no contact with outside skydiver or jumper from my country it is very benefit to have this information. Internet is one of the only ways I can get information. A place with central information is extremely important and I learned high information from basewiki, it help me to understand that many jump I make was dangerous, and gived me insight to how other people jump. It maybe that I am what you describe as type that you dont want to jump, I live in iran, not many chance for regular skydive, but lots of cliff, but I jump because if I dont fly then I have nothing else. For me all information makes jump safer, all information helps to make more understand. People I think should be free to make life descision by themselve, I dont think anyone think BASE is not dangerus, if they do BASE and you deny information they may die because of no informattion rather than die because they make descision to try BASE. -Hamid Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TVPB 0 #16 June 9, 2006 Nick You are just recording facts and anecdotes. You are not creating them. Keep up the good work. I for one, do appreciate your efforts. The young person you mention is showing obvious signs of fear and he does not appreciate the reality check. After all, this shit is supposed to be cool, not dangerous. And "if I don't know anything up front, I will have no time to worry about it as I am going in". Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TVPB 0 #17 June 9, 2006 Information is important Jaap. If there is nothing there, then newbies have nothing to BASE their decisions on. Reivention occurs. Fundamental repetition occurs. People make the same silly mistakes due to lack of information. This is not a good outcome / scenario. If there IS something there, they have the opportunity to use the information in a positive / productive / affective / safe manner. People can use the information in conjunction with coaching from qualified persons in a controlled learning environment. We have issues with the quality of some of our teachers. We have issues with the qualty of some of our students. This will always be an issue regardless of what you or I or anyone else produces. The bottom line is that they are adults and are responsible for their own actions. Do not remove the information. There are many people who will use it properly and it will benefit their lives and evolution in this sport. Those that do not use it properly will inevitably stuff up whether the info is there or not. Cater to those that are common sense, suitably motivated, and respectful of what they are doing. The others have both the opportunity and ability to derive the same benefits from your information. Don't deny the former. The latter have made decisions that you have NO control over. Keep up the good work. Tom Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDaemon 0 #18 June 9, 2006 Jaap, I respect your decision to remove the basewiki.com website. When information is protected and hard to obtain those who desire it go to substantial lengths to acquire it. It filters on the quality of individual who is willing to invest the time and effort to seek out those with said information about an otherwise underground (and extremely dangerous) sport. Placing the "how to" guide in the hands of the masses often leads to each member of the masses gaining a sense of confidence due to their reading things such as these forums or the basewiki.com. The 'script-kiddies' that are the mosquitos of my industry are a prime example of how ignorant people can get ahold of just enough information to damage themselves and those around them. While an argument can be made that placing all information in the public domain, readily and easily available is 'good' one has to define what 'good' is. I think you properly illustrated the argument against it in your post. To address the fatality list, it serves to discourage individuals from jumping while this forum and the basewiki seem to indirectly encourage people to jump. The hype of what the 'cool kids' are up to in the 'BASE community' intrigues and appeals to many, and could be considered to 'market' the sport. Providing quick and easy information about the sport, someone could assume they have the skills and confidence to approach the sport independently, or worse talk authoratively about it to others. Perhaps this is how the 'bad Jacks' are born (allusion to a recent post of Nick's). Many from dz.commers (and the general public) peruse this forum and find 'getting into base' is becoming easier and easier. (as is demonstrated by the explosion in BASE numbers and new jumpers) The message you posted on the wiki seems to spell out the position well, and I find it makes sense. The information is important to have... but that doesn't mean it has be written down and posted on the internet. There are other ways to preserve the value of the information without making a website about it. At the end of the day it's your call, although if you don't repost it, someone else may. Installing wiki software is relatively easy, and more than likely someone will eventually duplicate your attempt. Best of luck with your decision. -=Raistlinfind / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer; Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sabre210 0 #19 June 9, 2006 Jaap Only you know why you choose to run the BASE wiki. If your intentions are genuine and honourable then continue to do it. Bottom line is, if just one person reads it and takes heed of some important piece of knowledge (no matter how trivial it may seem, or how obvious it may appear) and in doing so it saves them making a fundamental error and perhaps paying with their life, then i guess you could consider it worthwhile. BASE is constantly evolving, simultaneously for the better and for the worse, and sometimes it does feel like the lunatics have taken over the asylum, but evolution is a wonderful process. Only the successful lines and successful methods survive in the longer term and that is perhaps what BASE wiki is essentially about : championing that which works, and discrediting that which doesn't. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KrisFlyZ 0 #20 June 9, 2006 Nick, I understand perfectly the need to wait before updating the list. I not been around in the sport long enough to have noticed a lapse in update times of the list...It is probably a post made by you or someone else if the list should be continued to be updated. For some reason I had this thought in my mind that you had a similar dilemma a while ago. Kris. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wwarped 0 #21 June 9, 2006 QuoteWhat's interesting is that the fatality list is by far the most educational tool available to the BASE community, if not the only one. Only the carnage-tape may be doing a better job. And therein lies my struggle; is BASE WIKI just a lame attempt at making the sport seem scientifically controllable? first off, thanks for the effort, but we will never make BASE scientifically controllable. "the list" remains a sobering read. it should dampen the enthusiasm of anyone interested in BASE. basewiki is not nearly as sobering, but it isn't very exciting either. it is a reference tool like a library or dictionary. it is best suited for those willing to put in effort. personally, I find all the "kewl" BASE videos far more bothersome. they get novices all excited and pumped. the experts captured on camera can make things look amazingly easy, and rarely show the time involved in planning. "heck, anyone can do it! let's skip the training, I can already do THAT!" this last group will forever keep BASE from being "scientifically controllable." their enthusiasm simply outpaces their skills. DON'T PANIC The lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. sloppy habits -> sloppy jumps -> injury or worse Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HydroGuy 0 #22 June 9, 2006 Quote"If knowledge dispels fear and fear keeps people from jumping Then BASE WIKI is the last thing we need" BASE wiki has got to be better than thisGet in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NickDG 23 #23 June 9, 2006 One bad part of doing the List is receiving emails like this one I just got today . . . Fr: tony encinas >>hey dumb fuck,doesnt this tell you something?just dont jump.U got got a death wish or what?please record your death on film ......sincerley me<< The List generates these types of emails all the time . . . It doesn’t hurt me, but it does make me sad there are such hateful and ignorant people like this in the world . . . NickD BASE 194 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nicrussell 0 #24 June 9, 2006 Im hoping you didnt (dont) respond to these type of emails. Looks like a waste of valuable time. Nic (was glad to share a drink with you in Twin.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #25 June 9, 2006 I'll bet he doesn't waste his time but I'll be about 100 people that read Nick's message will reply on his behalf.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
