What to do when self regulation isnt enough?

[JerseyShawn 0]

Situation:

I have a friend who jumps in a neighboring state, sub 15 jumps mind you. I talked to him today, he got a jump in. He jumped in 22 mph winds and said no one stopped him from jumping in those winds (I know too high of winds for a newer jumper). A couple of his landings were off the DZ (and the 22mph jump, where he just made it across the road), so his pattern with correlation of wind conditions were not accounted for. His last jump he was on a 210 (his only jump on a 210), today he jumped a 190. Next jump he's talking about jumping a 170. He's 175 lbs plus gear.

The last two jumps he tried a head down and a sit position, both didn't work out for him being he had no instruction and shouldn't be trying that shit for a long time. I asked what the fuck are doing dude? He "thinks" he knows.

I tried explaining to him that you'll land in different conditions under canopy just about every jump. And that you should land into the wind, downwind, crosswind, half brake pattern landings, rear riser landing, ect. before you should downsize and ASK an instructor if he/she thinks you're ready. He thinks he can regulate and discipline himself, obviously not. And him trying head down and sits is really worrying me too.

He likes tracking but doesn't even know to track 90 degrees to the
jump run, I had to explain why you have to. Looking for the spot under canopy during final, the spot that doesn't move where you'll land, he didn't even know about. So since AFF he has sought no instruction of how things work.

I understand staying in the sport I will meet a lot of great people and lose some at the same time, I expect it. How do I keep my friend out of the incidence thread when talking to him wont curb his behavior? At the rate he's going I have an aweful feeling he's going to be the first I know to go in. Sucks, I feel powerless when my harsh words with him do nothing. I explained that you aren't paying people to baby sit you, its up to you to you to keep yourself and others safe by regulating yourself and staying within your skill level. And that grounding yourself due to weather conditions is a skill that goes with the sport.

I may not know that much myself about skydiving, but I know my skill limits and how to properly obtain new ones. Just wish others wernt so ignorant.

[chuckakers 425]

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Situation:

I have a friend who jumps in a neighboring state, sub 15 jumps mind you. I talked to him today, he got a jump in. He jumped in 22 mph winds and said no one stopped him from jumping in those winds (I know too high of winds for a newer jumper). A couple of his landings were off the DZ (and the 22mph jump, where he just made it across the road), so his pattern with correlation of wind conditions were not accounted for. His last jump he was on a 210 (his only jump on a 210), today he jumped a 190. Next jump he's talking about jumping a 170. He's 175 lbs plus gear.

Let's try a new game for these posts....

Name the DZ and I'll personally call the DZO to get his response. If the DZ is USPA, I'll gladly conference the call with the head shed so we can discuss the BSR violation as well.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[skyjumpenfool 2]

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Situation:

I have a friend who jumps in a neighboring state, sub 15 jumps mind you. I talked to him today, he got a jump in. He jumped in 22 mph winds and said no one stopped him from jumping in those winds (I know too high of winds for a newer jumper). A couple of his landings were off the DZ (and the 22mph jump, where he just made it across the road), so his pattern with correlation of wind conditions were not accounted for. His last jump he was on a 210 (his only jump on a 210), today he jumped a 190. Next jump he's talking about jumping a 170. He's 175 lbs plus gear.

Let's try a new game for these posts....

Name the DZ and I'll personally call the DZO to get his response. If the DZ is USPA, I'll gladly conference the call with the head shed so we can discuss the BSR violation as well.

Before we through the DZ/DZO to the wolves, is it possible this person is pulling your chain, or just plain Full of S^1T. I'd hate to see a good DZ/DZO be outed in a public forum based on the ramblings of a braggart.

Good call not naming names. But, I would check out his story with the DZO.

Birdshit & Fools Productions

"Son, only two things fall from the sky."

[jimmytavino 16]

here's what you do.....


have him read the thread which Twardo started in General Skydiving Discussions,,, titled "Kudos to the Noob"

that is ALL<<<<<

jt

[chuckakers 425]

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Situation:

I have a friend who jumps in a neighboring state, sub 15 jumps mind you. I talked to him today, he got a jump in. He jumped in 22 mph winds and said no one stopped him from jumping in those winds (I know too high of winds for a newer jumper). A couple of his landings were off the DZ (and the 22mph jump, where he just made it across the road), so his pattern with correlation of wind conditions were not accounted for. His last jump he was on a 210 (his only jump on a 210), today he jumped a 190. Next jump he's talking about jumping a 170. He's 175 lbs plus gear.

Let's try a new game for these posts....

Name the DZ and I'll personally call the DZO to get his response. If the DZ is USPA, I'll gladly conference the call with the head shed so we can discuss the BSR violation as well.

Before we through the DZ/DZO to the wolves, is it possible this person is pulling your chain, or just plain Full of S^1T. I'd hate to see a good DZ/DZO be outed in a public forum based on the ramblings of a braggart.

Good call not naming names. But, I would check out his story with the DZO.

I didn't throw - or "through" - the DZ/DZO to the wolves. If the DZO in question has a reasonable explanation or wants to deny the allegations, a phone call would be a great opportunity to do so.

And in case you didn't catch it, checking out the story with the DZO is exactly what I propose.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[JerseyShawn 0]

I have no intentions of posting or PMing anyone where my friend jumps, not what the post was about. The DZO isn't the problem. My friend is the problem.

My friend got to jump in the 22mph winds because he made a point not telling anyone his jump numbers or skill level. So he basically snuck on the jump like an asshole instead of grounding himself. Just like people that pencil in their reserve repack date, some are devious and get away with it.

I was just asking how I can get through to him not to be an idiot about his decisions. Im just worried about his shitty decisions, that's all.

[JerseyShawn 0]

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here's what you do.....


have him read the thread which Twardo started in General Skydiving Discussions,,, titled "Kudos to the Noob"

that is ALL<<<<<

jt

Thanks, its a good read. Maybe that will show him its respected to do the right thing. Ill show him some of the canopy threads also. Maybe he'll see Im not just being a hard ass on him. Thanks.

[Divalent 135]

I don't see that it would be out of line to just call the DZ and give them a heads up. Give them his name, his experience, and tell them what you are concerned about. I would hope they would then keep an eye on him the next time he shows up, perhaps introduce him to their instructors so that he's not flying under their radar. (I don't think they want him to create an incident at their place any more than you do.)

[jimmytavino 16]

exactly.

someone is snoozin' in manifest.... and/or in management.....
IF a visitor is not adequately screened to determine his or her experience level, number of Jumps. etc...
Sometimes familiar faces who may have 'been around" for a while can be assumed to have logged MORE jumps than they actually have accomplished.... I see nothing wrong, with a visitor being asked to verify their level of experience... and while it Isn't always jump #s that matter it IS sensible for a DZO to have a FAIR idea of what is what..as they allow someone to manifest...

It's NOT always about what a guys' Gear looks like... ( New and sharp looking) or if they simply seem "Quiet"....
It's about knowing WHO is getting into your planes and whether they might be a risk to themselves or others...
J Shawn..?? can you tell us whether the DZ flies a 4 place plane, or a larger one???

p.s. the answer to backin' up... isn't ALWAYS to simply Increase Wing Loading!!!

[Rover 11]

If he won't take advice, get him to start wearing a camera. Nothing too fancy, a Gopro should do it. They are strong and should withstand the impact. At least that way we can all get to see the carnage on YouTube.

2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do.

[popsjumper 2]

IMHO, since the friend won't listen to common sense, then contacting the DZO is the right thing to do. Simple as that. YOU should do it. You should have done it already.

Kudos to you for your concern for him but you are stopping short of a possible solution...at least for that DZ.

Otherwise, just go ahead and break his legs now and save him the trouble of doing it later.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[nigel99 471]

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I have no intentions of posting or PMing anyone where my friend jumps, not what the post was about. The DZO isn't the problem. My friend is the problem.

My friend got to jump in the 22mph winds because he made a point not telling anyone his jump numbers or skill level. So he basically snuck on the jump like an asshole instead of grounding himself. Just like people that pencil in their reserve repack date, some are devious and get away with it.

I was just asking how I can get through to him not to be an idiot about his decisions. Im just worried about his shitty decisions, that's all.

Sorry but you are wrong. Prior to your A license you are under the supervision of an instructor. The DZ is part of the problem, even if it is simply the fact that sloppy procedures let people who shouldn't be jumping through the net.

If you are truly concerned then perhaps making a call to the DZO yourself and stating your concerns about the claims your friend is making would help? At the very least it should ease your mind if things go wrong.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[skybytch 273]

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I was just asking how I can get through to him not to be an idiot about his decisions. Im just worried about his shitty decisions, that's all.

You can't keep anyone but yourself from doing things that are less than safe. What you can do is refuse to jump with him and refuse to talk about his jumps with him.

People who make shitty decisions in this sport can and do survive. Ask around at the dz, I guarantee you many of the instructors you've jumped with have made shitty decisions in the past. They got lucky and nobody died before they grew up an realized that skydiving isn't really all that safe an activity and all those "recommendations" are there for a reason. . Hopefully your friend will do the same.

Please let the folks at the dz you jump at know if this guy comes to jump there. Lots of folks I really like jump at that dz.

[peregrinerose 0]

If he somehow 'snuck onto' the load with low jump numbers, you should probably call the DZ and make them aware of the jumper's name and actual experience level. It wouldn't be a bad idea to name your friend, so that if he shows up at any of the DZs that DZ.commers jump at, we can keep an eye on things or make the DZO aware of the situation so that this does not happen. Frankly, I'd be pissed if this guy took me out and you weren't proactive about preventing the situation.

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[Skyper 0]

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The DZO isn't the problem.

it's part of dzo's job to watch who is going into the plane and to prevent the hazards. and each and every student should be considered as hazard and deserves additional attention and checks.

edit: and I never heard of assumption that the studends are able to regulate themselves.

[davelepka 4]

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My friend got to jump in the 22mph winds because he made a point not telling anyone his jump numbers or skill level. So he basically snuck on the jump like an asshole instead of grounding himself.

No. There's no way a guy with 15 jumps gets to sneak anywhere. Without a licesne, without a rig, and being a new guy on the DZ (he must have been, or every instructor would have known his experience) there's no way he could sneak anywhere.

Something doesn't add up. Either the guy is telling you stories, or the DZO needs to be informed of the situation. If your pal is telling the truth, the DZ in question is severely lacking in oversight in terms of un-licensed jumpers and their rental rigs. The DZO needs to be informed of what was allowed to happen, or spoken to for he allowed to happen.

Put the name of the DZ out there and the date this occured. First and foremost, someone from that DZ will read it and can confirm if indeed they were flying that day, and if the winds were what your friend reported. From there we can figure out if it happened for real, or just in your friend's imagination.

[piisfish 140]

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What to do when self regulation isnt enough?

Pull handles

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[LloydDobbler 2]

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The DZO isn't the problem.

it's part of dzo's job to watch who is going into the plane and to prevent the hazards. and each and every student should be considered as hazard and deserves additional attention and checks.

edit: and I never heard of assumption that the studends are able to regulate themselves.

Agreed. It's also part of the DZ's instructors' jobs to know when a student is on the plane in order to give them appropriate gear checks, etc.

On paper, ultimately the buck stops with any instructor/coach who's also on the load. But in my opinion, someone on manifest should be verifying that students are pulled from the load sheet when winds get above a certain level. Likewise, instructor approval should be required to downsize while still a student.

That being said, this guy could be yanking the OP's chain...I agree that the best course of action is to phone up the DZO and get his/her take on the matter. Take Chuck up on his offer, above. You don't have to publicly 'out' the DZ - just call them and ask. And if the answer is unsatisfactory, maybe then it's time to call them out on the public forum.

Signatures are the new black.

[billvon 2,991]

>What to do when self regulation isnt enough?

Unfortunately, nowadays the answer seems to be "post about it, but don't do anything about it and don't identify anything that might help someone else solve it."

[JerseyShawn 0]

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>What to do when self regulation isnt enough?

Unfortunately, nowadays the answer seems to be "post about it, but don't do anything about it and don't identify anything that might help someone else solve it."

Wasn't asking anyone else to solve the situation. Just asking advise what I can do. Via the suggestions, hence the phone call i made yesterday to the DZ. Sorry I have other things going on in life besides DZ.com to post the status of my actions. Again, sorry.

The DZO left a message with his cell number. Ill call him back during lunch and post how he handles it.

[billvon 2,991]

>Wasn't asking anyone else to solve the situation.

Sorry, I wasn't really answering you about what to do about your friend's problem, I was answering the more general question "what to do when self regulation isn't enough?"

All too often the answer is to complain to someone else. I see it in homeowner's associations, engineering teams, and dropzones. It's easy to say "These canopy collisions have GOT TO STOP! I have had ENOUGH!" A lot harder to talk to someone like Luigi and tell him he can't swoop. (Or to call the DZ and tell them about the problem, which it sounds like you did.)

[JerseyShawn 0]

Thanks for the clarification billvon.

So, the conversation went well. The DZO calls bullshit on the 22 mph winds. He said it was no more than 8-10 mph tops that day. He knows my friend and watched his landing across the road and powerlines, just cleared them He said his pattern was set up wrong from the start. My friend didn't tell me that he got a talk from the DZO about it. The DZO is putting him back on radio because its the second time he's landed out. Props for that.

The DZO didn't know about his canopy choices, so he said he will personally hand him the appropriate size student rig when he jumps again. Manifest has his name and aware to seek the DZO so he can have a safety talk with him before he jumps. School him on proper tracking, downsizing, and NOT trying to freefly yet and the dangers of trying it when others on the load don't know that you're free flying. He's going to contact other DZs in the area in case he tries to jump there.

In all he said they'll pay extra attention to my friend and steer him right. The DZO was really appreciative of me calling and thanked me for trying to make things right for everyone.

If my friend still pulls reckless behavior, his name will be posted.
And hell know that the next phone call. I wont stand for actions that jepordize saftey in anything I do. Fun follows safety first. That's why I posted about my friend, embarrassing as it is.

[airtwardo 7]

Your friend is lucky to have you as a buddy...hopefully someday he'll realize that. Nice work!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[nigel99 471]

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Thanks for the clarification billvon.

So, the conversation went well. The DZO calls bullshit on the 22 mph winds. He said it was no more than 8-10 mph tops that day. He knows my friend and watched his landing across the road and powerlines, just cleared them He said his pattern was set up wrong from the start. My friend didn't tell me that he got a talk from the DZO about it. The DZO is putting him back on radio because its the second time he's landed out. Props for that.

The DZO didn't know about his canopy choices, so he said he will personally hand him the appropriate size student rig when he jumps again. Manifest has his name and aware to seek the DZO so he can have a safety talk with him before he jumps. School him on proper tracking, downsizing, and NOT trying to freefly yet and the dangers of trying it when others on the load don't know that you're free flying. He's going to contact other DZs in the area in case he tries to jump there.

In all he said they'll pay extra attention to my friend and steer him right. The DZO was really appreciative of me calling and thanked me for trying to make things right for everyone.

If my friend still pulls reckless behavior, his name will be posted.
And hell know that the next phone call. I wont stand for actions that jepordize saftey in anything I do. Fun follows safety first. That's why I posted about my friend, embarrassing as it is.

Good result.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[robinheid 0]

Quote

Situation:

I have a friend who jumps in a neighboring state, sub 15 jumps mind you. I talked to him today, he got a jump in. He jumped in 22 mph winds and said no one stopped him from jumping in those winds (I know too high of winds for a newer jumper). A couple of his landings were off the DZ (and the 22mph jump, where he just made it across the road), so his pattern with correlation of wind conditions were not accounted for. His last jump he was on a 210 (his only jump on a 210), today he jumped a 190. Next jump he's talking about jumping a 170. He's 175 lbs plus gear.

The last two jumps he tried a head down and a sit position, both didn't work out for him being he had no instruction and shouldn't be trying that shit for a long time. I asked what the fuck are doing dude? He "thinks" he knows.

I tried explaining to him that you'll land in different conditions under canopy just about every jump. And that you should land into the wind, downwind, crosswind, half brake pattern landings, rear riser landing, ect. before you should downsize and ASK an instructor if he/she thinks you're ready. He thinks he can regulate and discipline himself, obviously not. And him trying head down and sits is really worrying me too.

He likes tracking but doesn't even know to track 90 degrees to the
jump run, I had to explain why you have to. Looking for the spot under canopy during final, the spot that doesn't move where you'll land, he didn't even know about. So since AFF he has sought no instruction of how things work.

I understand staying in the sport I will meet a lot of great people and lose some at the same time, I expect it. How do I keep my friend out of the incidence thread when talking to him wont curb his behavior? At the rate he's going I have an aweful feeling he's going to be the first I know to go in. Sucks, I feel powerless when my harsh words with him do nothing. I explained that you aren't paying people to baby sit you, its up to you to you to keep yourself and others safe by regulating yourself and staying within your skill level. And that grounding yourself due to weather conditions is a skill that goes with the sport.

I may not know that much myself about skydiving, but I know my skill limits and how to properly obtain new ones. Just wish others wernt so ignorant.

Self-regulation is enough to solve this problem. He will soon self-regulate himself to room temperature. Problem solved. Case closed. Next!

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."