Toxic PC's

[diablopilot 2]

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Pie slices on any PC is NOT a good idea altho it looks cewl!

Why?

It does what's advertised, evening the bias more so than any other PC on the market.

I'll agree that I don't find the benefit to outweigh the added cost, but that's just my opinion.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[luv2fly 0]

One thing that can bring ZP up to the standard of F-111 in this regard (point of initial inflation relative to jumper/pack tray) is the direction of the jumpers pitch. If you are pitching directly upward (as popularized by DW and RS for ultra low freefalls) at exit, your ZP PC will inflate in the same position as an F-111 PC (directly over your back). The F-111 is still better "vented" (since it's essentially equally vented across it's entire surface) than the ZP, and can dampen further oscillations better, but that's not terribly important because, assuming good (symmetric) attachment, further oscillation is unlikely (and of small magnitude if it does occur).

[jtholmes 0]

f111, it is better

all this fractionally faster stuff is just silly. base rigs open fast as hell. totally fast and predictable; no need to speed them up.

F111 is best. i am right. everyone else is wrong; zp is for 46 inch and 48 inch PCs used on hand held sub 230ft FF without skis:

Uncle potato head.

[TomAiello 26]

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...a few thousand jumps where, regardless of pitch direction...

Can you give us an idea what fraction of those jumps involved an upward pitch direction? In other words, how many of those were low go and throw stuff (i'm guessing some of them were from BR's little wall?) and how many were longer delays from Malaysian events and such?

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[luv2fly 0]

People....listen to Uncle Potato Head...

JJ

[Calvin19 0]

Quote

Quote

Pie slices on any PC is NOT a good idea altho it looks cewl!

Why?

It does what's advertised, evening the bias more so than any other PC on the market.

I'll agree that I don't find the benefit to outweigh the added cost, but that's just my opinion.

Agreed, my PCs have 3, or 4 slices in them.

why on earth would it be bad to have slices in the PC?
you -DO- look at you pc to check for anything wrong with it before stuffing it into the BOC right? ('anything wrong' would include AN ENTIRE GORRAM STITCH COMING APART ON A BOUBLE STICHED SEEM)

-SPACE-

[doucette 0]

marty has once again built me the best rig ever (that make 3 now by him) my pc has the attacment point your speaking of i'll post a pic it is great....

[diveout 0]

PIC?

That'd be super!

[TomAiello 26]

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PIC?

That'd be super!

It's the loop style attachment mentioned in the "First BASE Rig" article linked at the top of this page.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[MyTwoCents 0]

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...the loop style attachment...

I'm at a complete loss why PCs with the traditional attachment point still exist. For ten bucks extra the loop style attachment is a no-brainer.

I suspect it's because a majority of BASE jumpers applies little critical thought to their purchase, placing all business transactions in the "it's from a reputable manufacturer, so it must be good, right?" category.

Is there any non-economical reason why an expert jumper may prefer the traditional attachment point?

[TomAiello 26]

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...the loop style attachment...

I'm at a complete loss why PCs with the traditional attachment point still exist. For ten bucks extra the loop style attachment is a no-brainer.

For many years, the loop style was not available from any major manufacturer. They had made the decision that the ease of manufacturing the non-loop style was greater by enough to justify making all their stock PC's in that style only.

Around '99 or 2000, Colin at Paratech started making BASE PC's with the loop attachment and marketing them. That's around the time that the idea started re-circulating through the BASE world.

I think the non-loop style has held on just because people are used to it, because many of today's opinion leaders in BASE "grew up" jumping with PC's that had that style of attachment.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Carpediem 0]

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PIC?

That'd be super!

Here ya go. He'll put it on any PC. I didn't get a toxic, going all F111 and just replacing more often.

Someone brought up the question of making a toxic F111. My question is, if the interchanged pie slices are to keep a "rounder" shape (alternating block and bias), isn't that the same function of 6 reinforcing tapes? Is there REALLY that much of a difference?

cya

Those who do, can't explain. Those who don't, can't understand.

[MyTwoCents 0]

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...because many of today's opinion leaders in BASE "grew up" jumping with PC's that had that style of attachment.

BASE is a poor choice when "growing up with it" is a person's only rationale.

I see why, but do not understand why. Alas...

[TomAiello 26]

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BASE is a poor choice when "growing up with it" is a person's only rationale.

Not necesarily. Reliability demonstrated through years of use is a valid reason for continuing to use something. It has the benefits of real-world proof. Newer technologies only have the benefits of reasoning, logic, and testing. None of those is actually as strong as real-world proof.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Calvin19 0]

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[ My question is, if the interchanged pie slices are to keep a "rounder" shape (alternating block and bias), isn't that the same function of 6 reinforcing tapes? Is there REALLY that much of a difference?

no, there isnt. if there is a measurable difference, i quit BASE.

the PCs i made have 'slices' for reasons other than keeping the inflation stretch thing spherical, but i did do symmetrical ZP 'grain' pannels none the less.

[Carpediem 0]

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no, there isnt. if there is a measurable difference, i quit BASE.

Nice! I got a good laugh outta that! I don't *think* there would be any difference, but one life lesson I've learned long ago was theory and practice are 2 different things...

Those who do, can't explain. Those who don't, can't understand.

[TomAiello 26]

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My question is, if the interchanged pie slices are to keep a "rounder" shape (alternating block and bias), isn't that the same function of 6 reinforcing tapes?

Your question is assuming a purpose. Maybe the purpose is different?

For example, with pie slices, it's possible to shape the PC into a different shape than the flat round that a single cut of ZP forms, by simply altering the shape of the triangle you make for each pie slice.


Rotating the block/bias allows you to keep the minimum stretch. This applies across the segments (where there are no tapes on either design) I'd say that there is definitely a measurable difference, in terms of stretch, if you are measuring on a table, with an actual ruler. Whether that makes any difference in real world use is another question entirely.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Carpediem 0]

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Whether that makes any difference in real world use is another question entirely.

Which I think is the purpose of this thread. Does anyone have any hard evidence on either side, for or against, this issue? Something other then "price" or "it feels faster". Video? Video with timeing? Using the same variables (ie, TF, back to back, same type of packjob, same delay, etc) Anything?

I'd love to see it. Maybe it does make a difference. Or, maybe it just looks cooler

Those who do, can't explain. Those who don't, can't understand.

[TomAiello 26]

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...Video? Video with timeing? Using the same variables (ie, TF, back to back, same type of packjob, same delay, etc) Anything?

Honestly, I've got a ton of video of various PC's, including Toxics, being used in FJC's here, with the same delays and conditions on back to back jumps of the same load.

I don't, however, currently have that video on-line, nor do I have the time to digitize it all and put it up on-line right now.

My feeling, from watching those deployments (and the video) is that there is no noticeable difference in actual use. But that's just my feeling--I haven't had the time to do an actual frame by frame comparison and analysis. If anyone wants to come copy all my FJC tapes and hunt through them to do that analysis, they're welcome to do so.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[HydroGuy 0]

There is actually more to the toxic than the block/bias construction. The vents are placed differently, changed based upon where the high pressure areas exist in a centerline PC. The vent placement is different on 42/46's as opposed to 38/36/32's as well.

Seriously Ralph, just email Marty...

Oh, and for people who like pretty colors on their gear, you can have a Toxic made with all sorts of "Look At Me" shades...or maybe a rainbow for those folks...

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[Calvin19 0]

and f111 is easier to sew.

[Carpediem 0]

Ok, well good to know the data is there. If no one gets to it by june, I'll nab it from you Tom. Seeing how the PC is *the* most important part of deployment, if no one wants to do the research I'll step up.

Till then, have fun and don't die

Those who do, can't explain. Those who don't, can't understand.

[TomAiello 26]

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There is actually more to the toxic than the block/bias construction. The vents are placed differently, changed based upon where the high pressure areas exist in a centerline PC. The vent placement is different on 42/46's as opposed to 38/36/32's as well.

I thought that went without saying (or at least had already been said earlier in this thread). The construction methods are noticeably different in the Toxic PC's (and, in my opinion, better), and there are several other differences, as well.

Non-centered vents are also available on standard (non-pie slice) pilot chutes from Morpheus, although as far as I know they are the only manufacturer aside from Asylum (on the Toxic) doing the non-centered vents.

-- Tom Aiello

Tom@SnakeRiverBASE.com
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Calvin19 0]

i bet its been posted, but can someone post a pic of one of these magic pcs?

[Carpediem 0]

You mean this?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/0610/gallery.base.jumping/content.8.html

Those who do, can't explain. Those who don't, can't understand.