hookitt 1 #26 March 25, 2004 Quote Are either or both of you using ZP or F-111 PCs and what is the conclusion of this experience? It's hard to say seal. I've used both types of PC's for my entire career. I've mostly used zp and none of mine have blown up. The way the centerline is attached to the apex and re-inforced (or lack there of) appeared to be the culprit It was a simple box stitch but I forget what material if any was sewn to the apex and since the rig ia 50 miles from here I wont be able to answer that. Sorry about that. Any way, the zp split from one side the other exactly the same way 3 times. the 4th pilot chute has remained intact. Conclusion: The pilot chutes all from the same manufacturer failed catastrphically. But as pointed out earlier, the main was deployed first. In short... no real conclusin except it does happen. I'm leaning toward the method of centerline attachment and reinforcement. A dull needle may have also lead to the failure.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seal_S49 0 #27 March 25, 2004 Quote jmo I'd call that a very valid opinion and a good case for this type of bag. Interesting to note that the ZP wobble factor didn't enter into the picture as was one of the original questions of this thread. I'd still haven't heard any input on the slippery-pouch-freeflying theory I suggested earlier, but I'm too lazy to contact any mfrs. S49 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seal_S49 0 #28 March 25, 2004 Quote I've mostly used zp and none of mine have blown up. That has been my experience also. QuoteThe way the centerline is attached to the apex and re-inforced (or lack there of) appeared to be the culprit That was the cause of the only failure I had (F-111 PC). I pay particular attention to this area now. QuoteBut as pointed out earlier, the main was deployed first. I had a good deployment also, which make me worry a lot less about any main PC blowout. Regards, S49 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #29 March 25, 2004 From what I was told by Bill Hallett when he was at Mirage, the F1-11 pilot chutes are standard equipment with new mirage rigs because of the kill line. He said that when a F1-11 pc needed replacing, it would be very likely that the kill line would also need to be replaced. This would give the possibly gear-ignorant jumper a new pc and bridle/kill line at the same time, rather than someone jumping a ZP pilot chute for possibly hundreds of jumps beyond the effective lifespan of the kill line. I traded my f1-11 for zp and am currently about 100 jumps from replacing the kill line. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaerock 1 #30 March 25, 2004 I've never seen any pilotchute shatter, so I'll defer to your more substantial experience :> I've only seen material damaged from snags and such, never from actually blowing up or ripping from the air. I've heard of plenty of canopies blowing up, but I've never actually seen one after the incident. What would you constitute as a difference between a shatter and a tear? The magnitude of the damage? If the two materials were subjected to the exact same wear or snag, then thrown into a +120MPH wind, would the way they fail be significantly different? -Rory QuoteQuoteI think the catastrophic failure bit is a crock of shit. You are absolutely incorrect. ZP "shatters" when F111 only "tears". I've seen happen many, many times...but I don't think that has anything to do with why some mfgs. recommend F111 (something I disagree with). Ask youself this: Why would you want the object responsible for getting your canopy out into the air to change over time? F111 wears out and becomes more porous with every jump. How can you expect to get continuity if it's always changing?!? The answer? Buy a new one every couple of hundred jumps...at a cost of about $100. Hmmm...am I missing something here. Do the words "planned obsolescence" mean anything to anyone? If you're worried about line dump (something else I think is pretty much crap - I jump a stowless D-bag), then realize that you don't need at 34" ZP pilot chute! It's more efficient, so it doesn't need to be as big...and it'll be the same every time. With that said, it's not a bad idea to replace your risers and P/C every time you reline your canopy (or at, say, about 600 jumps, if you want to wait). They'll actually go longer than this, but it'd be a shame if you went in because you didn't buy new risers every couple of years. All parts wear out and need to be replaced...but buying something that I know is going to wear out 4 times as fast just doesn't make sense to me! You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seal_S49 0 #31 March 25, 2004 QuoteFrom what I was told by Bill Hallett... Finally, a mfr is quoted. This seems like a logical reason. I like that answer because it tends to validate the use of ZP PCs by those of us who mfr or maintain our own equipment. My PC's lifespan is limited by the mesh. Kill line & bridle are easy to replace. Thanks for posting this Mike! S49 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #32 March 25, 2004 No problem! I was surprised I didn't see that posted earlier in the thread. It's pretty logical to me. IIRC, Bill also preferred velcro toggles over other retaining methods (double tuck tabs), which also gave me a lot to think about. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kaerock 1 #33 March 25, 2004 Velcro near microline sounds like a fantastic idea. If they want to replace PCs more often because people don't necessarily know better, I'd be weary about their policies. "While we changed your oil we found a problem with your engine, your flux capacitance gel needs to be re-centrifuged and your cog-shaft needs realignment, the bill comes out to $2,345" "Does it really need it?" "Yes" "Oh, okay then" *cha-ching* -R QuoteNo problem! I was surprised I didn't see that posted earlier in the thread. It's pretty logical to me. IIRC, Bill also preferred velcro toggles over other retaining methods (double tuck tabs), which also gave me a lot to think about. You be the king and I'll overthrow your government. --KRS-ONE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #34 March 25, 2004 Actually, if excess is stowed correctly, you'll never have a problem with microline and velcro. If you let the hook-side of the velcro contact the line regularly, you will. There are drawbacks to many velcroless-toggle designs which put the user in a tougher situation than *possibly* having to replace lower control lines more frequently. mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seal_S49 0 #35 March 25, 2004 Quote I'd be weary about their policies. I'm gettin "weary" of reading, but the velcro/less debate might be a good start of another thread. BTW, as much as I hate velcro, I've had pretty good lifespan of control lines even with the velcro-type toggles. I think that lines w/ a better quality of resin-coating are less degraded by hook-side. But again, maybe another thread... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigging65 0 #36 March 26, 2004 QuoteWhat would you constitute as a difference between a shatter and a tear? The magnitude of the damage? That's correct. F111 will tear a bit, then tear a bit more, then a bit more...over time. When ZP goes, it goes huge. The easiest example of this is when you look at destroyed canopies. ZP canopies blow up HUGE when they blow up, often running the length of cell (or near it). That's just not something you see in F111 very often. Holes in ZP (big enough to get a finger in) are an invitation for a blown cell. I've seen tears two to three inches long in F111 canopies that didn't cause structural failure. "...and once you had tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward. For there you have been, and there you long to return..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzlite 0 #37 March 26, 2004 Quote; "From what I was told by Bill Hallett when he was at Mirage, the F1-11 pilot chutes are standard equipment with new mirage rigs because of the kill line. He said that when a F1-11 pc needed replacing, it would be very likely that the kill line would also need to be replaced. This would give the possibly gear-ignorant jumper a new pc and bridle/kill line at the same time, rather than someone jumping a ZP pilot chute for possibly hundreds of jumps beyond the effective lifespan of the kill line." Since I fall into this 'catagory' (In reguards to kill line pcs & zp fabric), this makes good sense. I have emailed mfr. on this subject. (sent 3/25/04 at 7:43 am)... So far...no reply. 300 of my jumps were made with f-111 no kill pc... and I will go back to same if I can determine affect (or lack of) on 190 tri./5.0 (1 jump last week end..no kill..[high winds-15-20]) I also opted for velcro stow toogles/risers... Thanks to you, rigging 65, and everyone who has posted to this thread, pro & or con, in the spirit it was written... Lu7k, D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seal_S49 0 #38 March 26, 2004 QuoteSince I fall into this 'catagory' ... Your interest in gaining better understanding tells me otherwise. QuoteI have emailed mfr. on this subject. (sent 3/25/04 at 7:43 am)... So far...no reply. Please share this information (or any other) with us as it becomes available. Thanks, S49 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzlite 0 #39 March 26, 2004 Quote from; PD site; Education/How to prevent hard opennings/Pilot Chute; "The pilot chute has a big effect on canopy deployments. The size, type of fabric, length of bridle, apex length, mesh size, and aerodynamic shape all affect the deployment of the parachute. Some pilot chutes have too much drag at terminal velocity. This can cause these problems: 1. They slow the bagged canopy down so quickly that the chance of line dump is increased. 2. When reaching line stretch, the jumper instantly accelerates the canopy back to his speed, since it is attached to him by the fully deployed lines. This is the first force the jumper feels at line stretch. (Moments later, the canopy starts to fill with air and slows down again.) A pilot chute with too much drag will have slowed the bagged canopy down so much that the jumper will experience quite a strong force when the canopy reaches line stretch. The canopy feels this jolt too, and the pack job will be forcefully spread apart by this force. This can cause harder openings, since the now disorganized canopy will inflate more quickly. In extreme cases, it may even open hard enough to cause structural damage to the parachute system. A pilot chute with more moderate drag will get the canopy to line stretch with less severe shock to the jumper and the canopy. The line dump problem is also less likely to occur, and the pack job is more likely to be released from the bag in an orderly fashion. Although a pilot chute with more moderate drag will produce more consistent openings, a pilot chute can have too little drag. This could happen if it is too worn out, too small, malfunctioned, or designed improperly. The danger here is obvious. The pilot chute must consistently function correctly. If it does not, a bag lock, or a pilot chute in tow may result. This can happen with a ripcord system, a pull out, or a throw out, if the pilot chute problem is bad enough. Most, but not all pilot chutes from container manufacturers are compatible with Performance Designs canopies. A pilot chute made from normal F-111 type fabric should be no more than 34" in diameter. We have found 30" to 32" to be adequate for most sport sized canopies (all measurements are finished dimensions). Pilot chutes made of zero porosity fabric are more sensitive to specific design criteria, and two of similar size may have widely different drag. They are definitely more sensitive to variations in design, with factors such as mesh size and hole size at the pilot chute base making a big difference in the drag produced. The zero porosity pilot chutes that we have tried that work adequately are between 26" and 28" and have relatively fine mesh. These pilot chutes also seem to be more sensitive to variations in line stow length and line stow tightness than regular pilot chutes. Collapsible pilot chutes can affect deployments too. The shock cord method of collapsing the pilot chute is tricky to design so that it works consistently. It must be properly designed and use only zero porosity fabric to maintain its calibration. Never use an F-111 shock cord collapsing pilot chute! It can be deadly, because the calibration speed changes rapidly as the fabric changes its porosity. We have seen many F-111 shock cord collapsing pilot chutes cause deployment problems due to inconsistency or outright failure to inflate." I have not been able to find info on pcs offerred for sale by PD...? They have not responded to the above email yet. ---------------------------------------------------------- RWS riggs come with a standard, f-111, 32" pc... options include; centerline, ZP, 27" centerline, f-111, 32" ----------------------------------------------------------- Aerodyne offers; Collapsable, ZP, 27" Collapsable, ZP, 28" (Custom w/hackey or pud) Collapsable, f-111, 32" Collapsable, f-111, 32" (Custom w/hackey or pud) Aero supplies an f-111, 28" w/canopies up to 190' They recomend an f-111, 32" for larger canopies. (I assume these are kill line) ------------------------------------------------------- This is all I've got so far...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
seal_S49 0 #40 March 26, 2004 Interesting to note that PD doesn't list fabric strength as a factor in choosing F-111 or ZP for a main PC, even though they have published this as their reason to use F-111 exclusively for reserves. I'm gonna keep using ZP for a main PC. Thanks for the info. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airgord 1 #41 March 26, 2004 I work for Rigging Innovations and every rig I have seen go out the door has a ZP pilotchute in it, I myself use both F111 and ZP in my rigs and they are close in jump numbers, the ZP tends to tow for a second more than the F111 but it is smaller (26") than the F111 (30"). I'll ask Sandy @ RI what he thinks, it would be nice to know what the other manufacturers have to say also. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzlite 0 #42 March 27, 2004 Since PD has not replied, I'm gonna assume they feel the info requested is contained on their website...& have not changed their recomendations... -------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- RWS... will make custom pcs (Sizes) upon request; (RWS site/3m series/options guide/cntrline pc) - A wide range of choices (Above)...no apparrent change in recomendations. -------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------- Aerodyne... (site) Recomends ZP killine...(F-111 option)... no apparent change here. note; Aero associate recomends cocking pc through window, (bringing link tight to bag), then bagging, recock to insure link tight to bag & stowing excess (if loop is still present at window) inside pc. --------------------------------------------- Will inquire of those providing "change in mfr's recomendations" as to sources & post same - earliest. D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnischalke 0 #43 March 27, 2004 I used to do the pull through the window thing, but I think there's a chance for kinking using that method. I now stand on the lip of the bag and pull the kill line from where it exits the bridle at the pc. I pull it all the way out until I can pull no more, and then I smooth the bridle out and let the loose kill fall inside the pc. This method works great, as I know the kill line is fully seated at the link end. I also can see that I am loading the two center tapes rather than the kill line, because I can see that the center tapes are taught, while the kill is limp. When the kill no longer has slack, it's time to replace it. Simple eh? mike Girls only want boyfriends who have great skills--You know, like nunchuk skills, bow-hunting skills, computer-hacking skills. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzlite 0 #44 March 27, 2004 Just repacked my rig... used window before bagging..(s-folded & banded tape inside bag)..used your method after bagging.. all seemed well..tapes inside pc are fully loading.. but there is little or no slack in kill line..and this pc has less than a dozen jumps on it. Also noticed indications of stress in one quadrant of mesh near hole..? (Mesh is correctly sewn-bias?) (pc is 'Gator' 26" or 27" ZP/monkey fist I believe) Opennings have been exellent so far. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzlite 0 #45 April 1, 2004 Correction; -------------------------------------------------------- Quote; "Aerodyne... (site) Recomends ZP killine...(F-111 option)... no apparent change here." ----------------------------------------------------------- Should read; "Aerodyne supplies a 28" pc made of (0-3 cfm) f-111 fabric for main canopies up to 190 sq ft. For bigger canopies 'they' recomend a 32" pc made of f-111 as well." (As above) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cruzlite 0 #46 April 7, 2004 Conclusion; (From my three most trusted Mfrs) PD; Noncommitted RWS; Supplys f-111 stanard Aerodyne; Recomends & supplys f-111 standard My next pc will be f-111... However, hearing good arguments for zp... I'm gonna use up my zp first. D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kolla 0 #47 April 8, 2004 Hello Cruizlite! I was browsing through our Support Tech e-mail, and didn't see one from you asking about pilot chutes - we have had a few others with same or similar questions though in the past couple of weeks, seems like a hot topic. I'm sorry that you didn't hear back from us, your e-mail must have gotten stuck in the pipes somewhere - we do try to get back with people within 24 hrs, either with an answer or to let them know we are working on it. Anyhow... I thought I'd chime in with my 2 cents here - it's a bit long: The argument about pilot chutes made out of F-111 or ZP has been going on for a good while, there are arguments for both sides - and pros and cons to both. Our test jumpers at PD prefer F-111 pilot chutes, as they feel they give a more smooth and consistent feel to the opening - the pilot chute is less prone to "bounce" around. However, many of them also have used zero p pilot chutes with good results, and we as a company are in no way opposed to zp pilot chutes. Most, but not all pilot chutes from container manufacturers are compatible with our canopies. A pilot chute made from F-111 type fabric should be 27” to 30” in diameter. This range has proven pretty effective for most sport-sized canopies. F-111 type pilot chutes have an extensive performance history, and have been used for a long time with great success - but they don't last as long as zp, and their performance degenerates over time - and that is not always noticed by the jumper until the pilot chute becomes very porous and barely produces enough drag to get the canopy out of the bag. For very small canopies, people have had good results with even smaller pilot chutes (24"-25"), but we haven't really tested our canopies with that size, so take this with a grain of salt. Pilot chutes made of zero porosity fabric can be a little bit more sensitive to specific design criteria. Two pilot chutes of similar size may produce significant differences in drag. They are much more design critical, with factors such as mesh size & orientation, and hole size at the pilot chute base, causing a drastic difference in the amount of drag produced. The zero porosity pilot chutes we have used with the greatest success are between 25” and 27” and have a relatively fine mesh. Zero porosity fabric pilot chutes will last longer and generally pack a tad smaller (although the "pack volume of a pilot chute is rarely a concern If the pouch containing the pilot chute is properly made and in good condition, odds are minimal that he pilot chute will travel anywhere before asked to do so. On a personal note, I have had both - and currently jump a Stiletto/Katana 107 & 120 with a 27 inch zp pilot chute from the Relative Workshop, and have been very happy with that one. In the end... I think this one might be up to what you prefer - chocolate or vanilla :) Blue ones! KollaBlue Skies Magazine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kosanke 0 #48 April 17, 2004 Kolla, glad to see you respond. I just sent my Stiletto 150 to PD because I have had hard openings since purchase. total jumps on it-10. The last was so hard that I think that I have broken a rib or 2. the feedback so far is replace the 32" F111 with a 27-28". hope this works. the test jumpers will report back on monday. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kolla 0 #49 April 17, 2004 Hey Thomas! Sorry to hear about your Stiletto - I'm sure the crew at PD will be able to shake out the demons. The pilot chute is quite an important part of the opening process, and I hope the test jumpers come back with a positive report Blooos! KollaBlue Skies Magazine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kosanke 0 #50 April 17, 2004 I love the way it flys, just need to fix the openings. My Spectre have a 30" F-111 and opens great. I have mucho confidence in the people at PD and love their products. Tom Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
