LawnDart21 0 #1 April 5, 2004 I was packing a reserve yesterday, so I took the main out and set it aside, as I did the repack. When I got done with the reserve, I went to open the main to inspect it, and reattach it, and when I pulled the last locking stow undone, the canopy came out of the back, hard as rock, stuck in its S-fold position. It wouldnt unravel, bend or anything. It "ate" the lines into the S fold, and they wouldnt budge. I picked it up from the bridle/d bag attachment line as well as from the otherside from the lines coming out of the S fold, and was able to pull both sides taut, so that the canopy was suspended in line with the line and bridle. I have never seen that before, ever. The reserve and container were in perfect condition, but this main is fubar. It was a brand new (fall 2003) ZP canopy, and my guess is that the rig was left next to a very warm place or very cold place over the winter, (no clue which) and the ZP goop all conjealed together. The canopy was as hard as a brick. I left it as is, so that the customer could see it before we decided on what to do with it. I have never seen anything like that before. I wll try to get pics this week and post them. - Tom -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 140 #2 April 5, 2004 read a post about a new velocity which stayed very long in the POD, and if I remember well, they test jumped it... the canopy remained as a block till the jumper pulled on the risers to get it separated... apparently happens when the ZP fabric is quite new due to the "stuff" making it ZP...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GravityGirl 0 #3 April 5, 2004 What kind of main? Have you contacted the manufacturer? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peace and Blue Skies! Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #4 April 5, 2004 I have read about a condition called "blocking" that happens to ZP. I PM'd reps from PD, Precision, and Atair that are members of these forums to chime in on this. Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #5 April 5, 2004 I had one just like that last night. The canopy had been packed for about 4 years and quite honestly, I doubt it would have opened. It took great effort to pry the material apart and once I had it up on the rack, I had to physiclally pull the ribs apart from each other. This canopy was brand new and has never been jumped. I have several more rigs at the moment that were purchased and packed at the same time and have also never been jumped. I'll try to get some picks and post them today. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KCJumper 0 #6 April 5, 2004 Last summer we pulled out a rig left behind by a frightened jumper. In it was a Spectre 170 that had maybe 2 jumps on it. When i went to pull out the main it did the same thing. I just had to slowly pull it apart and let it air before packing and jumping. Had wonderful openings with it every time. Patrick Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YonatanRan 0 #7 April 5, 2004 Hi, I red what you wrote and i thought i had a simillar incident, I bought a new Velocity that was packed for a while....I would say a few good months...when I got it out the box it was hard and stuck, kind of the situation your describing...after some playing around I got it out and packed and it was fine, are you talking about this kind of a situation or something even worse.....completely gone? no longer usable or just stiff? thanks.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harksaw 0 #8 April 5, 2004 For you people who have said this has happened to you, was it due to leaving it next to a heat source or hot area (like a hot attic or trunk)? Or was it just very new and packed for too long?__________________________________________________ I started skydiving for the money and the chicks. Oh, wait. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #9 April 5, 2004 QuoteFor you people who have said this has happened to you, was it due to leaving it next to a heat source or hot area I had this problem in one of my rigs last month. Sure glad I decided to repack it. No, it has never been stored next to a heat source. Do you know people who actually store their rigs in these conditions? That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #10 April 5, 2004 Perhaps even say in the trunk of the car on a hot summer daywhile you are at work? Just a thought. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Praetorian 1 #11 April 5, 2004 to you or any rigger.. has this ever been a problem with a reserve? (or any other F-111) ?? Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad judgment. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genn 0 #12 April 5, 2004 Was the main canopy packed wet? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #13 April 5, 2004 I have never seen an F-111 canopy stick together like the Zp main I found last night. In fact I have recently opened and repacked all the resevres that were with the millitary rigs that I'm doing and while they where a bit hard, I have no doubt that they would have opened Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KevinMcGuire 0 #14 April 5, 2004 QuotePerhaps even say in the trunk of the car on a hot summer daywhile you are at work? Just a thought. The rigs I've been working on were all stored in an air conditioned building and inside a locker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #15 April 5, 2004 Well I thought he was talking about storing a rig, not leaving it in a trunk while at work. This condition does not happen overnight. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kolla 0 #16 April 6, 2004 Mmm... that sounds like an interesting one! I'm not a rigger nor have I seen one like this at PD, but I will check in with our riggers tomorrow and let you know what they have to say - stay tuned Bloooos! KollaBlue Skies Magazine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #17 April 6, 2004 I'm gonna see the jumper who's main it is this weekend, and I will try to get some info from him on the conditions that his rig was left in over the winter, and post it here on Monday. -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cobaltdan 0 #18 April 6, 2004 there are several different manufacturers of zp, with each one having slightly different coatings and properties. i have noticed that gelvenor zp takes a temporary set after being packed for very long periods, but i have not seen it stick to itself. such packs deploy slow but just fine. i do think its best to be on the safe side and repack any long standing pack job before use... sincerely, daniel preston atair aerospaceDaniel Preston <><> atairaerodynamics.com (sport) atairaerospace.com (military) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #19 April 6, 2004 The PD website mentions this as a reason to use F111 type material on reserves instead of ZP_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #20 April 6, 2004 Quotegelvenor zp takes a temporary set From yours and other posts, it seems like the canopy material still works after this happens. But do you think it decreases the overall life of the canopy? I mean, for instance, only 1000 jumps instead of 2000? Would the fabric or ZP coating be deteriorated at the seams of the folds?Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eames 0 #21 April 6, 2004 Quotei do think its best to be on the safe side and repack any long standing pack job before use... I agree. It's also a legal requirement in the U.S..... Not that anybody cares, or course. But technically, to make a legal jump, your main has to have been packed within the last 120 days (not necessarily by a rigger): Quote105.43 Use of single-harness, dual-parachute systems. No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows: (a) The main parachute must have been packed within 120 days before the date of its use by a certificated parachute rigger, the person making the next jump with that parachute, or a non-certificated person under the direct supervision of a certification parachute rigger. (b) The reserve parachute must have been packed by a certificated parachute rigger— (1) Within 120 days before the date of its use, if its canopy, shroud, and harness are composed exclusively of nylon, rayon, or similar synthetic fiber or material that is substantially resistant to damage from mold, mildew, and other fungi, and other rotting agents propagated in a moist environment; or (2) Within 60 days before the date of its use, if it is composed of any amount of silk, pongee, or other natural fiber, or material not specified in paragraph (b)(1) of this section. (c) If installed, the automatic activation device must be maintained in accordance with manufacturer instructions for that automatic activation device. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #22 April 6, 2004 OK . . . I did some homework and may be able to shed some light on the subject. As I said earlier, I had read somewhere about a condition called "blocking" that was unique to ZP because of the coating process that makes it that way. I had to call PD for something else this morning, so I asked them about this issue as well. The manufacturer of the ZP material PD uses, Performance Textiles, calls the condition "surface adhesion," like one layer of cellophane wrap might react to another (Saran Wrap). Apparently this condition shows itself when ZP mains have been packed for a longer than average period of time. The particular case we discussed was a main that had been packed for a year and a half. I asked him about particular storage conditions contributing to the problem . . . I was told this had no bearing on the issue, it is simply the nature of ZP fabric because of the coating process. When I asked about their recommendation for those who discovered their canopies in this condition, the answer was to unpack it, air out each cell to separate the material, repack it and jump it. They added that monitoring the behavior of this canopy (i.e. the condition showing up again within a short period of time) would be a good idea. The moral of the story? I would air it out, repack it, and jump it with confidence. TO be sure, you may want to contact the manufacturer of this particular canopy yourself so you can document that conversation and stand firm in your own recommendation.Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LawnDart21 0 #23 April 6, 2004 Thank you for the input/info, that really helps. I will be contactnig the manufacture this week to get their assessment as well. Thanks! Tom -- My other ride is a RESERVE. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #24 April 6, 2004 QuoteOK . . . I did some homework and may be able to shed some light on the subject. As I said earlier, I had read somewhere about a condition called "blocking" that was unique to ZP because of the coating process that makes it that way. I had to call PD for something else this morning, so I asked them about this issue as well. The manufacturer of the ZP material PD uses, Performance Textiles, calls the condition "surface adhesion," like one layer of cellophane wrap might react to another (Saran Wrap). Apparently this condition shows itself when ZP mains have been packed for a longer than average period of time. The particular case we discussed was a main that had been packed for a year and a half. I asked him about particular storage conditions contributing to the problem . . . I was told this had no bearing on the issue, it is simply the nature of ZP fabric because of the coating process. When I asked about their recommendation for those who discovered their canopies in this condition, the answer was to unpack it, air out each cell to separate the material, repack it and jump it. They added that monitoring the behavior of this canopy (i.e. the condition showing up again within a short period of time) would be a good idea. The moral of the story? I would air it out, repack it, and jump it with confidence. TO be sure, you may want to contact the manufacturer of this particular canopy yourself so you can document that conversation and stand firm in your own recommendation. Ok, I'll play devils advocate here: What about the hybrid (ZP/ F111) reserves out there, any issues? Just curious. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
slotperfect 7 #25 April 7, 2004 QuoteOk, I'll play devils advocate here: What about the hybrid (ZP/ F111) reserves out there, any issues? Just curious. Fair enough, Mr. Advocate I wouldn't think it would show up as badly since the ribs and bottom skin of hybrids are F-111 (or whatever the new technical term is for it these days).Arrive Safely John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
