payback462 0 #1 April 6, 2004 ok, sorry for the potty mouth. but seriously people figure out what the fuck your doing. nobodys gonna think any less of you if you tell them you dont know what the fudge your doin and that you need a little help heres the story. this saturday, i witnessed something really friggin stupid and thought id pass it on. so im sitting in on a packing class and i see this older dude bring this oooold talon over and he says guess ill repack my reserve! so im like uhm, whatever so he pops it open, first thing he does is flip the freebag over and unmate the velcro then procedes to pull lines out fistful at atime all the while scraping them on the hook velcro then he takes the canopy out of the freebag and stretches it out (with the reserve risers still half under the main risers and uneven) so he shakes it out then lays it out flat then goes and fiddles with his cypress and screwdriver so then he starts to flat pack it (notice he didnt inspect it!)but it ended up being a very large mess with the D and brake lines almost around the nose so at this point im thinking to myself is he reallly going to pack that thing??? or is he just fucking with me? thats when the master rigger/owner of the loft came over and very tactfully said that maybe he had no idea what the hell he was doing and offered him coaching which he delcined apparently this guy got a ticket back before squares even existed, and hasnt learned much since later on the loft owner told me that i shouldve spoken up earlier since i was witness to the whole thing, i felt kinda like the low man though since im a newbie and all, but now i know that just because somebodys been doing something a long time doesnt mean its been the right thing! (not to say that older riggers cant be the bombdiggity at packing squares) oh well, point is read the fucking manual, know what your doing, and never be afraid to speak up when saftey is involved! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #2 April 6, 2004 Flat packing a reserve?......really?..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #3 April 6, 2004 It's tough to call an old dog on any thing isn't it! About 5 years ago, I had the unpleasant task of having to tell another rigger we (a couple other riggers and myself) felt his packing practices needed a fresh start. A local Master rigger had come to me seeking a tactful way to bring it up. reluctantly I agreed to have a chat with him for a couple reasons. He was my friend. He packed for many of my friends. I wanted to be able to recommend him as a rigger. Luckily the conversation went well. He was very receptive. We've traded much information over the years. With out any apprehension, I can and do recommend him for any and all rigging work. I certainly don't have all the answers. I've made a few mistakes, but luckily none that were safety issues. The bottom line is it wasn't correct. I guess my point is, sometimes it's not a popularity contest. While many skydivers don't like to be corrected, yes ... me included... most of the time when the defense mechanism mellows out, the message gets across. If you see something you know to be unsafe, do something about it.My grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #4 April 6, 2004 Every reserve repack I've seen has been flatpackedYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iamthebest_391 0 #5 April 6, 2004 Used to be they were required to be flat packed. G. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #6 April 6, 2004 Quote oh well, point is read the fucking manual, know what your doing, and never be afraid to speak up when saftey is involved!T Looking at manuals for 1980's rigs with square reserves in them, the canopies were flat packed and weren't molar'ed. There were some interesting pretzel-like methods to get a canopy into a freebag back then. This brings up the issue of having to follow the manufacturer's procedures (according to the FAA in the USA), but at the same time using experience to know when there are better ways to do things, that are already standard in the industry. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hookitt 1 #7 April 6, 2004 Are you sure? Most often it's propacked on the ground It starts on the side, and the fabric is spread out evenly to both sides of center. The end result is a pro-packMy grammar sometimes resembles that of magnetic refrigerator poetry... Ghetto Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
payback462 0 #8 April 6, 2004 QuoteLooking at manuals for 1980's rigs with square reserves in them, the canopies were flat packed and weren't molar'ed. There were some interesting pretzel-like methods to get a canopy into a freebag back then. i know that some old ways werent as good as pro-packing it on the floor with clamps, but im talking about a big pile of crap, lines and fabric all over. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brits17 0 #9 April 6, 2004 The only flat pack I've seen in the recent past is a strong tandem. Most riggers are PRO packing sport reserves. _______________________ aerialkinetics.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Liemberg 0 #10 April 6, 2004 QuoteFlat packing a reserve?......really?..... Strong Master Reserves - see title of the thread. Pisa Tempo Reserves - see title of the thread. Quote(pchapman) This brings up the issue of having to follow the manufacturer's procedures (according to the FAA in the USA), but at the same time using experience to know when there are better ways to do things, that are already standard in the industry. What he said... ( can't seem to find the Tempo manual, 't was in the cupboard just recently...) "Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci A thousand words... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Shivon 0 #11 April 6, 2004 A similar thing happened at my DZ the other weekend, and to be honest I am still not sure how we should have dealt with it. Two relatively new riggers (of which I am one) were doing an inspection on a canopy when an older rigger (who has been out of the sport for 10 years or so but has recently decided to start jumping again) rocks up, and starts asking pretty pointed questions in an 'exam-like' manner about 'how do you do this, what thread would you use for that'. I put his pretty arrogant manner down to him being new at the DZ after a very long time out of the sport, and him trying to sort out the pecking order. We don't buy into that crap at our DZ, but anyway, that's what I thought he was trying to do. I played along with the questions for a while, but when he tried to shoot one of the other riggers down on an answer to a pretty simple question (what thread would you use to do repair work on reserves) I got fed up and not-so-politely told him to stop wasting our time and go read Poynters. (To which he replied that he had never heard of it, and quoted some other supposed parachuting reference manual that I had never heard of during my apprenticeship or study / exams). Later on the same guy was getting one of the packers to show him how to pro-pack (aparently the sport hadn't gotten that far when he left it). With his new-found knowledge he then went on to lecture the packers on how pro-packing was completely unsafe, and how they should take a leaf out of his book and flat-pack. Anyway. My issue, is that we, like most training DZs, have impressional people around who look up to riggers / packers, and I was just blown away to see some of the younger guys hanging off this guy's every word. But what do you do? Bitching in front of the junior guys / gals is poor form, and only turns it into a he said / she said thing, with the reputation of the riggers in general loosing out. But I certainly wouldn't trust this guy to pack a reserve, and I guess the DZ operators are in the unenviable position where this guy has his riggers ticket (which he renewed the whole time he was out of the sport). Arrrgggh!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #12 April 6, 2004 I certainly do, understand your frustration! I think, your, as you put it 'potty' language points that out. We have a Master Rigger/DPRE in our area very similar to what you have described. This guy, has been around 'forever'. When I first got my Senior Cert., he 'invited' me to work with him. Being a newbie and 'ignorant' of a lot of things, I thought this was a good deal. I really didn't know him that well and had never seen his work. I later, witnessed some pretty scarry work done by him! Leg-strap repairs done with 'FF' thread, for example. His packing manuals consisted of some 'old' pilot rigs and etc. I watched him pack a Vector-II, using Vector-I instructions. He'd find 'little' mistakes done by other riggers and not get with the rigger involved. He'd write a letter to the FAA. I asked him about it and he said that "As long as the 'Feds' are looking at someone else, they aren't looking at me!" A very arrogant person. If, anyone questioned him, his response was; "I'm a F****** Master Rigger!" I didn't stay around him too long. I could go on and on. 'Newbies', can be put in some 'awkward' positions, sometimes. Asking questions of experinced people can help. Sure, you have to be careful, who you ask questions of, when you are new. You have to kinda' 'feel it out'. I think, this forum is a good way of learning. You get a lot of in-put that you can sort-out and use to your benefit and/or situation. Good luck to you! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Squeak 17 #13 April 6, 2004 QuoteAre you sure? Most often it's propacked on the ground It starts on the side, and the fabric is spread out evenly to both sides of center. The end result is a pro-pack It's packed in a similar way to a standard flat pack untill the cacoon thingy is done, so I'm not certain what happens at this point. The guys do it this way without any clamps or straps. They seem to work fine as i found out on jump 18.You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #14 April 7, 2004 QuoteFlat packing a reserve?......really?..... ALL of the reserves I have packed/ used/ tested have been flat packed. About 3500 last count. And to the best of my knowledge they have ALL worked just fine. I'll go with what I'm comfortable with and every rigger should go with what they are comfortable with too. that's what it's all about. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #15 April 7, 2004 Returning to the original question ... Flat-pack vs. pro-pack vs. pro-stack are minor arguments The real arguments are over poor inspections and sloppy packing (i.e. steering lines around the front). PIA already has a 3-step process for disciplining naughty riggers. The last thing the FAA wants to hear is anything about a naughty rigger. The FAA is far happier when skydivers self-regulate. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Designer 0 #16 April 7, 2004 Interesting post!That's why the riggers get the big bucks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
