YonatanRan 0 #1 April 25, 2004 I just came across a REflex and when I opend it I found the Catapult Chute in it....I was wondering what you people thought of the system, good or bad or non of the above.....Love to hear what you all have to sya about it..... Thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #2 April 25, 2004 You can do a search on here for reflex and find a lot of opinions. Some people swear by it, others have come up with thousands of ways it's going to kill you. All I know is it has worked and hasn't killed anyone. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamesNahikian 0 #3 April 25, 2004 I have two successful breakaways using the Catapult and I'm comfortable with continuing to jump the system, though granted it's on a backup rig which I seldom use at the present time. You may wish to consider that when Catapult entered the mass market Relative Workshop was outspoken in its criticism of the product and claimed a secondary reserve pilotchute was a solution in search of a problem. RW's negative commentary was in part based on its testing of a similar concept, the Vortex, which had exhibited a tendency to lock the freebag closed. However, the Vortex configuration routed the reserve bridle through the secondary reserve pilotchute centerline whereas the Catapult attaches the bridle to the mesh base of the secondary reserve pilotchute. The Catapult also incorporates a plastic "keeper" that purportedly reduces the secondary pilotchute's exposure to the relative wind until after the primary reserve pilotchute has had an opportunity to deploy. It's reasonable to expect that different results could obtain between the two different designs IMHO. If the issue seriously concerns you, try and contact the originator of the Catapult, Mick Cottle, who I understand jumps in Southern California. D. James Nahikian CHICAGO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #4 April 25, 2004 Any time you have two pilot chutes on the same bridle one is always going to work against the other one. The first one to catch air will have to pull the other one along. JMO SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #5 April 25, 2004 Seems like a solution to a problem that never existed.....=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kris 0 #6 April 25, 2004 Quote Seems like a solution to a problem that never existed..... Reserve PC's have hung up on things (such as a main) before and killed people. The problem Mick was trying to solve with the catapult does indeed exist. The jury was out though on whether the possible problems the catapult brought to the table outweighed the positives. The catapult had one or two saves IIRC.Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JamesNahikian 0 #7 April 25, 2004 QuoteSeems like a solution to a problem that never existed..... It's true that reserve parachute system malfunctions are rare. Nonetheless, if one should occur on your next jump what is Plan B(2)? I believe that in addition to a marketing purpose, the Catapult was intended to contribute, and it does actually serve as, a legitimate Plan B(2) in certain situations. It hasn't interferred with my long term plans despite two breakaways, and I admit my primary freeflying rig is an RW model in which I have reposed considerable confidence. D. James Nahikian CHICAGO Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #8 April 26, 2004 A former rigger of mine is a HUGE fan of the catapult system. I found out why a while after buying a reflex from him. Turns out he had packed the "main" reserve pilot chute incorrectly, stuffing the pilot chute material between the hard poptop and the decorative cover. In other words, he made the reserve pilot chute useless. The catapult ended up saving the jumper's life. Now thats a problem that can basically only happen on a reflex by a freaking insane rigger, but nonetheless, the catapult did its job. The arguments against the catapult range from maybe possible all the way to outright crazy. But if the catapult makes you uncomfortable, remove it and you've got a decent, well made, comfortable rig. Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #9 April 26, 2004 Quote A former rigger of mine... other words, he made the reserve pilot chute useless. The catapult ended up saving the jumper's life Yeah, I think he'd be a former rigger as well! Truely a sad day when someone's life was saved due to a random piece of equipment thats not standard, because a rigger flat out screwed up and didn't follow the directions.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #10 April 26, 2004 Mick's catapult is a solution to a problem that several other manufacturers have tried to solve ... since square reserves were first introduced. Shortly before Para-Flite introduced the Safety-Flyer reserve in the late 1970s, a friend of the designer "went in" with a pilot chute entangled with a smoke cannister attached to his foot. Ergo, the freebag with its wide bridle. Supposedly the wide bridle creates enough drag to lift the d-bag to line stretch, even if the reserve pilot chute is tangled. Over the years, reserve containers got tighter and tighter and fewer and fewer riggers trust the wide bridle to lift the freebag off a jumper's back. Two solutions arrived: assister pockets and catapults. Talons, Infinities and a few other containers include assister pockets. Reflex and Mach 3 Alpha containers include catapults. The jury is still out as to which solution is best. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #11 April 26, 2004 QuoteSupposedly the wide bridle creates enough drag to lift the d-bag to line stretch, even if the reserve pilot chute is tangled. Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the drag created by 12 inches of the wide bridle was more than enough to depoloy the reserve... The figures I've seen quote that approx 900N of force can be created by the bridle alone..... Does anybody have a resource where I can double check these numbers?=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #12 April 26, 2004 QuoteI just came across a REflex and when I opend it I found the Catapult Chute in it....I was wondering what you people thought of the system, good or bad or non of the above.....Love to hear what you all have to sya about it..... Thanks Oh boy, here we go again!! I just came home from a VERY long day at work, had a couple of cocktails and read this thread. I'll gather my thoughts in the next day or so and try (again) to give a detailed and informative rendering of this subject. If anyone want's a one on one I can be reached @ . Sorry for the delay. Mick Cottle.(blah, blah, blah, etc) (you know the tag line). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #13 April 26, 2004 QuoteQuoteI just came across a REflex and when I opend it I found the Catapult Chute in it....I was wondering what you people thought of the system, good or bad or non of the above.....Love to hear what you all have to sya about it..... Thanks Hey JP, (sudden thought) you follow all of this stuff closely, mind providing a few links for the people to follow? Also GIVE ME INSTRUCTONS to attach hyperlinks. Thanks. Mick (sorry for yelling). Oh boy, here we go again!! I just came home from a VERY long day at work, had a couple of cocktails and read this thread. I'll gather my thoughts in the next day or so and try (again) to give a detailed and informative rendering of this subject. If anyone want's a one on one I can be reached @ . Sorry for the delay. Mick Cottle.(blah, blah, blah, etc) (you know the tag line). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nightjumps 1 #14 April 26, 2004 Hey Mick, Here's ALL the threads regarding the Reflex. ttp://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_type=AND&search_string=reflex Don't know if you remember me, but you built me an M-Flex (Navy & Gold) about 5 years ago thru LM at the gearstore @ elsinore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #15 April 26, 2004 Video exits of the wide bridle trying to launch a main bag from an open container. I've never seen it on line. Just kind of bounces along. While it's a good story and many stick by it, I wouldn't ever depend on the bridle to extract a bag from a tight reserve container. If it's out and going it will aid in deployment if the PC has trouble.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #16 April 26, 2004 Quote Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that the drag created by 12 inches of the wide bridle was more than enough to depoloy the reserve... The figures I've seen quote that approx 900N of force can be created by the bridle alone..... Does anybody have a resource where I can double check these numbers? Here is the correction, from the source known as Bill Booth : "Let me clear up one myth right now. The free bag system WILL NOT pull your reserve bag out of its container in the event of a horse shoe malfunction. A horse shoed 16 foot long, 2 inch wide, free bag bridle generates only about 2 pounds of force on the bag at terminal velocity. Most reserve canopies weigh over 5 pounds, not counting force required to extract them from the reserve container, especially if the main container is still closed. What the long wide bridle will do, however, is stabilize the bag, (if you reach back and throw it out of the container) so that it won't tumble through its own lines as it deploys. So, if you ever experience a horseshoe malfunction of your reserve, don't just lie there and wait to hit the ground, sit up until you feel the reserve bridle hit you in the back of the head, reach back and pull on it until the free bag is out of the container, and then let go. The drag of the bag itself, helped out by the bridle, will then carry it to line stretch. I put out a film about this about 15 years ago, but a lot of people seem to have forgotten." Source: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=121557#121557 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #17 April 26, 2004 QuoteVideo exits of the wide bridle trying to launch a main bag from an open container. I've never seen it on line. Just kind of bounces along Inability of the wide reserve bridle to extract a freebaged canopy has been shown in "Mike McGowan's Greatest Hits" movie. You are right - it just bounces around... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Unstable 9 #18 April 26, 2004 Hmmm, I guess that is just a myth floating around in the rigging community. One Mr. Booth Speaks, the whole world listens...=========Shaun ========== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #19 April 26, 2004 The pull generated by a 2" reserve pilot chute bridle in a horseshoe configuration is about 2 pounds. I published a video recording that fact about 20 years ago. Reserves weigh at least 5 pounds. Plus, all modern reserve containers add a "containment" force to keep the reserve bag in the container during pilot chute hesitations, to prevent out-of-sequence deployments (which, by the way, have killed several jumpers using older containers without this safety feature). So, it usually takes at least 10 pounds of force to remove a reserve bag from its container. Therefore, a horse-shoed reserve bridle does not generate nearly enough force to pull your reserve bag out of its container. This is a good thing, because it prevents out of sequence deployments due to pilot chute hesitations. The basic problem with two reserve pilot chute systems like my Vortex (which I developed years before the Catapult, but did not market) or the Catapult itself, is that they cannot tell the difference between a pilot chute hesitation (very common) and a reserve horse shoe malfunction (very rare). So, the second pilot chute on these systems can easily pull the reserve free bag above a hesitating primary (spring loaded) pilot chute, allowing that pilot chute to get into the lines below the free bag, thus totaling your reserve. So, the Catapult system actually encourages out of sequence reserve deployments, which as I said above, is a very bad thing. I tried to solve this problem with the Vortex, but was unable to do so. The Catapult does not solve it either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,990 #20 April 26, 2004 >Seems like a solution to a problem that never existed..... It is a solution to a problem that, I believe, Mick experienced firsthand, so he had a vested interest in solving it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pilotdave 0 #21 April 26, 2004 So why do we have 2" wide bridles? I was always told they're so wide to catch the air in case of a horseshoe... Dave Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #22 April 26, 2004 Question: So why do we have 2" bridles in the first place? Answer: Para-flite started it over 20 years ago. When they came out with the first square reserve, the Safety Flyer, they decided to "tinker" with a lot of other things too. The "free-bag" with its bungee "safety stows" and 2" wide "anti-horseshoe" bridle was the result. The Safety-Flyer was marketed with the Swift container system which had no pocketed corners. As a result, when you pulled the ripcord, the bag would simple fall out of the container. When they drop tested this combined system with a built-in "horseshoe" malfunction and a tumbling (unstable) dummy, the bag would simply be ejected from the container because of centifugal force (angular acceleration) and be pulled to line stretch by the force of the relative wind on the bag. The super long bridle allowed the lines to unstow, and the freebag allowed the canopy to open. The 2" width merely provided stabilization so that the bag did not tumble through the lines as they unstowed. The anti-horseshoe system worked in those test conditions. However, as stated earlier in this thread, it will not work with a stable jumper using a modern piggyback system. The long, wide bridle has persisted out of inertia. i.e. No one wanted to go against an existing, "proven" system. Even though, I suspect, the wide bridle helps create and lengthen pilot chute hesitations, because of the drag it creates in the burble right above a stable jumpers back on initial pilot chute launch. I have made one change recently, however. I had to shorted the bridle a bit to make the Skyhook work correctly. I kept the 2" width because of the stabilizing effect I noted above. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #23 April 26, 2004 QuoteAny time you have two pilot chutes on the same bridle one is always going to work against the other one. The first one to catch air will have to pull the other one along. Both can pull in the same vector/direction.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billbooth 10 #24 April 27, 2004 Let's say that you have a main horseshoe malfunction, and you are going to have to dump your reserve up through it. Now let's say you have not one, but two reserve pilot chutes on your reserve bridle, which are connected so as to form a letter " Y ". What are your chances that that " Y " shaped junction, with a pilot chute on each upper end, is going to make it up through, and past, your main horseshoe. Not very good, I think. Do you really still want a Catapult? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YonatanRan 0 #25 April 27, 2004 I had a question....it was answerd and so were many other questions I didn't even ask.....I an honored that Bill Booth could give his input.....But another question regarding this issue, Is there any recorded incident where the Catapult system caused a malfunction or kept one from being solved, anything that has caused deaths or injuries??? thanks..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
