Packing error on my reserve - how serious?

[PhreeZone 20]

Issues that that would have caused? More wear on the steering line as you moved it and it rubbed on the reserve lines, slightly harder toggle forces, possible hesitation where the bartacks would rub on the lines.

Its not much different then jumping a rig with a step through under the slider.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Praetorian 1]

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I am always amazed when a customer comes to me and says (in not so many words), I can't be bothered to take the time/ figure out how to save my own life. Will you please do it for me? A bit over simplified I know but then again.....

Is this really the attitude you see coming in? I'm about to have my rig assembled and reserve packed for the ..um.. presecond time. I've already talked with the rigger and he is cool with me standing over his shoulder watching everything. In the future there will be times when I hand my pack over to him (or another rigger I have come to know and trust) and walk away for whatever reason. The attitude of "I can't be bothered" isn't what I'm feeling, what I'm feeling is akin to watching the needle go in for IV sedation when a Dr works on my body. or to a lesser extent when I leave my car to have its breaks done by a PROFESSIONAL. I get the Idea for both (surgery and breakjobs) but I'd rather find someone who is better qualified to do it.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[KevinMcGuire 0]

As I said, I over simplified, and clearly that statement does not apply to every one I have met or performed work for. But there are plenty of folks out there who are just "too busy" to give it even a moments thought and yet often times these same people are all too eager to bitch and complain about something they know next to nothing about . And lets not forget about the others, for whom rigging is simply "beneath them." These are the people I was reffering to.

Look what you did. You got me all worked up and ranting. Sorry about that

[riggerrob 643]

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Rob, I'm still looking for opinions on what problems this packing error may have caused. Any thoughts?

Gus

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In my opinion, the reserve would have opened fine, maybe with a slow turn.
Toggle turns would have been sluggish, but no big deal.
I would have flared okay.
If the extra friction would have interfered with flaring, then it is your fault for buying too small a reserve.

PIA has a standard 3-step reporting procedure for this sort of error.
The first step involves phoning the rigger about his minor error (i.e. mis-routed steering line). Most of the time he/she is embarrassed and apologetic and that is the end of the process.
The second step involves life-threatening errors or repeated errors. Document the error with photographs and notes and ask another rigger to confirm your findings.
The third step is reserved for repeated life-threatening errors and an unrepentant attitude. Continue to document the errors, including your conversations with the offending rigger. Include confirmation by witnesses. Discuss the offending rigger with you rlocal DPRE. The last step involves sending copies of your documentation to an FAA FSDO. Trust me, the FSDO does not want to be bothered by one rigger tattling on another naughty rigger. The FAA have far bigger problems to occupy their time (i.e. Al Queda) and are much happier when skydivers self-regulate.

[betzilla 56]

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Usually, I launch it in front of them, hang it up, do my own cell checks, check each attachment point, do a full continuity check, then hand it off to them, which they in turn do again.

That's awesome! I'm continually surprised by the humber of jumpers who aren't even curious what the inside of their reserve container looks like. It's great that you inspect your own -- the more eyes on the canopy, the better the chances that if there's a problem (like the one that prompted this thread, or worse), it will be found.

-B

[rushmc 23]

Now that you have opened the "legal" aspect of this discussion...........When I return a rig to the owner I have a quiz on the bill. That quiz is as follows, "The manufactures maximum weight recommendation for your reserve is ____________lbs." Then, once I inform them of that weight I have them fill in the blank and initial that entry. I do not ask them what they weigh or make any other recommendations, but the looks on some of the faces are interesting

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[mjosparky 4]

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Get this.. there are a lot of riggers that don't know anything about the soft 3 rings in the 80's and don't even look for them on rigs.

This is no such thing a "soft 3 rings"

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I asked 3 riggers and all 3 gave me different answers on what is required on a inspection on a round. Even on modern square gear doing things like pull tests seem to be a lost art on most riggers and they don't do them as often as they should.

Don't you think you should wait until you have a riggers ticket before you make statements about what riggers know and what they should know?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[crapflinger2000 1]

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Should every rigger on that list have their ticket pulled instantly or is education a better solution?

I guess that depends on your POV. I'd venture a guess and say that the rigger beleives education is the way to go...but we're not talking about the stupid kid at McD's who can't get your freakin' order right. We place complete and total faith in our rigger's ability to put a pack job in our container that will deploy correctly and have a greater probablility of opening. I don't know whether that particular error would cause a mal or not...but it's so blatantly obvious its inexcuseable. And, if I'm not mistaken this poor soul walked around for 120 days with it like that. Bottom line...not acceptable and the rigger needs to be reprimanded...officially. I think it wouldn't be a bad idea to let us all have his name here so we can decide whether we feel safe with one of his pack jobs in our container.

Have to say I disagree here.

While any packing error on a reserve is indeed a serious matter, the course of action should be to first discuss the matter with the rigger in question. If he/she has an attitude of: "Ohmygosh, I am sorry, thanks for bringing this to my attention, I think this happened because of ________, therefore I will change __________. Thank you for helping me out on this" then I would let it alone.

Only if the attitude is "so what?" or "well, it would not have caused him to die, what's the BFD?", then I would potentially bring his name up to the proper authorities.

You said, "We place complete and total faith in our rigger's ability to put a pack job in our container that will deploy correctly and have a greater probablility of opening. "

You realize you are placing that complete and total faith in a fallable human being, right? Every rigger is gonna fuck up some detail in their time. It's unavoidable if they rig for long enuff. You should gauge your response to this screw up on the riggers attitude and willingness to accept responsibility.

__________________________________________________
What would Vic Mackey do?

[KevinMcGuire 0]

[PhreeZone 20]

>Don't you think you should wait until you have a riggers ticket before you make statements about what riggers know and what they should know?

I'm working on my ticket right now so I ask everyone I can about their procedures on packing everything so I can learn as much as possible. I've picked up tricks from about a dozen different rigger now and I'm always looking to expand my bag of tricks. So no.. I think a rigging student has every right to question the replies from riggers so he can learn.

And it was RW8's that were soft right?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[KevinMcGuire 0]

yep RW8's

[TimHurford 0]

I think Phree is refering to this

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PSB#021584
Status of the Large 3-ring (RW-1-82; RW-1-83)
February 15, 1984
***SAFETY WARNING***
All Wonderhog IIs, Sprints, and Vectors with the large rings of the 3-Ring release stamped RW-1 '82' and RW-1 '83' are grounded as of February 3, 1984 until the large rings are either replaced or pull tested for strength.
Some of the large rings with the above markings were not heat treated at the suppliers and are soft. Two incidents have been reported where these rings elongated on opening shock. One of these incidents prevented the jumper from releasing a malfunctioned main canopy. The deploying reserve entangled with the main. Rings with markings of RW1-81 and RW1-84 are acceptable. Only the RW-1 '82' and RW-1 '83' are suspect.

The full Product Service Bulletin can be found on the RWS website here

[airdvr 210]

You realize you are placing that complete and total faith in a fallable human being, right? Every rigger is gonna fuck up some detail in their time. It's unavoidable if they rig for long enuff.

Well...I have to tell you...I wouldn't think a misrouted steering line is just "some detail". It's basic 4 line check stuff and there may be others running around with pack jobs done incorrectly. If you're saying that at some point a rigger will pack a canopy wrong and I should just accept that I won't. And...I am not trusting my life to the rigger...I'm trusting it to the last parachute I have. That parachute must be in there right...no excuses. I certainly wouldn't excuse a pilot for missing "some detail". I don't expect any less of my rigger.

You should gauge your response to this screw up on the riggers attitude and willingness to accept responsibility.

Accepting responsibility for that type of screw up is like robbing a bank and returning the money, accepting responsibility, and thinking you're not going to jail. Sorry...I have an expectation of riggers to be above reproach. I think anything less than that is unacceptable.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[mjosparky 4]

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Don't you think you should wait until you have a riggers ticket before you make statements about what riggers know and what they should know?

I stand by this statement. There is a difference between asking questions to learn and giving advise and running down the knowledge of licensed riggers. At this point, I don't think you are in a position to make judgments like that.

It was the harness ring that was tempered improperly. So I guess there is a "soft harness ring". I stand corrected.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[crapflinger2000 1]

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You should gauge your response to this screw up on the riggers attitude and willingness to accept responsibility.

Accepting responsibility for that type of screw up is like robbing a bank and returning the money, accepting responsibility, and thinking you're not going to jail. Sorry...I have an expectation of riggers to be above reproach. I think anything less than that is unacceptable.

OK, last I will post on this topic... Do what you want, but when it was me (on both sides of the coin, dicovering errors and having errors pointed out to me), I both took the route I outlined and appreciated that route being taken with me. I learned a lot. Should I have had my ass handed to me for packing up an old NB6 bailout rig with a shitty reserve PC? Possibly, but in my defense, I packed the same rig with my mentor 4 months prior and he said it was OK. Would I have learned my lesson any better if FSDO came a calling? Doubt it. My point is, not every apparent careless error is the result of egregious misconduct on the part of the rigger.

I agree, this is basic 4 line stuff, but given the choice between trying to put the fear of god into the wayward rigger myself or involving some FAA ninny, I'll try me first.

And finally, to equate a bank robbery and a careless rigging error is kind of a stretch.

__________________________________________________
What would Vic Mackey do?

[KevinMcGuire 0]

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You realize you are placing that complete and total faith in a fallable human being, right? Every rigger is gonna fuck up some detail in their time. It's unavoidable if they rig for long enuff.

Well...I have to tell you...I wouldn't think a misrouted steering line is just "some detail". It's basic 4 line check stuff and there may be others running around with pack jobs done incorrectly. If you're saying that at some point a rigger will pack a canopy wrong and I should just accept that I won't. And...I am not trusting my life to the rigger...I'm trusting it to the last parachute I have. That parachute must be in there right...no excuses. I certainly wouldn't excuse a pilot for missing "some detail". I don't expect any less of my rigger.

You should gauge your response to this screw up on the riggers attitude and willingness to accept responsibility.

Accepting responsibility for that type of screw up is like robbing a bank and returning the money, accepting responsibility, and thinking you're not going to jail. Sorry...I have an expectation of riggers to be above reproach. I think anything less than that is unacceptable.

Let me fist start by saying that the mistake that started this is unacceptable and should not have happened. I only hope that the rigger who made the mistake learns from it. However, Once again I'm forced to say, If you want something done right, do it your self.
If you will not do it your self, then why? O.K perhaps your very new to the sport and have many other things going on like surviving exit to landing but if you've been in the sport for any length of time and you still Know nothing, then IMO there is no excuse.

Are you afraid that you might make a mistake? If you ALLOW someone else to make a mistake, who's mistake is it really? How can you hold someone else to a higher standard than you would hold your self to? This is your life I'm talking about. Is rigging too much of a pain in the ass for you learn? It anin't rocket surgery. It does not require years of schooling or hundreds of thousands of dollars for tuition.
If you can't be bothered to take the time to learn even the basics then clearly you are unwilling to take responsibility for your own life.
I began rigging to save my own life, not to make money. It just worked out that way. If I blow it packing my reserve and I go in, I have no else to blame but myself. I can accept that. What I don't want to accept is the guilt of killing someone else but thats the risk I take. You as the customer are risking that I don't kill you. Kind of a foolish risk wouldn't you say?
I don't mean to say that I have a habit of making rigging mistakes on gear but I have made them, and most likely will again. If I must make another mistake, my only hope is that it's minor like the one that started this thread. To er is human, to believe that others are perfect is just plain stupid.
If you don't have the guts to learn the art of rigging and ensure your own survival, then you must accept that some one else's actions may kill and then really, who's responsibility is that

I'm sure this view is not one that most want to hear from a rigger but it is the truth. So Let the flaming begin

[PhreeZone 20]

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At this point, I don't think you are in a position to make judgments like that.

Only a few more repacks and I'll have my ticket to learn I think that having a rigger say that the only inspection that you have to do on a round is when you move it during the flakeing, then another saying it needs hung and using a light box to look for damage is two very different answers and should be questioned on the differences.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[gus 1]

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I'm sure this view is not one that most want to hear from a rigger but it is the truth. So Let the flaming begin

I don't mind hearing it - infact I agree. Any time you let anyone else do something to your rig (be it repack the main, repack the reserve or build the harness) you have to accept the chance that they'll do it wrong. If you can't accept it then do it yourself.

Gus

OutpatientsOnline.com

[airdvr 210]

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If you want something done right, do it your self.

Hmmm...so I should perform surgery on myself? There is a very good reason I want a rigger to pack my reserve....they know more about it than I do, or if I'm making a mistake packing my main I don't want it repeated on my reserve. The "do it yourself" argument is pointless. There's lots of things in this life I could do myself...but I don't. It doesn't mean I shouldn't have an expectation that it is being done correctly.

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If you ALLOW someone else to make a mistake, who's mistake is it really?

It's their mistake. The mistake I made was in beleiveing they knew what they were doing.

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You as the customer are risking that I don't kill you. Kind of a foolish risk wouldn't you say?

I really hope not. There's a reason the FAA requires reserves to be repacked by a licensed rigger. I beleive its the reason that a reserve mal is extremely rare. Compare the number of reserve rides to the reserve mal rate...pretty small percentage.

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you must accept that some one else's actions may kill and then really, who's responsibility is that

Look...I don't know you...don't know if you're a good person or not. But I know you are a LICENSED rigger, and you have a responsibility to your customers. That responsibility is to put a parachute in their container that has been packed correctly...the best job you know how. And, its not as if that pack job is open to interpretation. Lots of $ have been spent by the manufacturer to figure out the best way that thing is supposed to be packed. I expect my rigger has done what the manufacturer wanted done. After that, its every man for himself.

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[KevinMcGuire 0]

I rest my case

[mjosparky 4]

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At this point, I don't think you are in a position to make judgments like that.

Only a few more repacks and I'll have my ticket to learn I think that having a rigger say that the only inspection that you have to do on a round is when you move it during the flakeing, then another saying it needs hung and using a light box to look for damage is two very different answers and should be questioned on the differences.

Both answers could be correct, without more information it would be hard to tell.

Respond to the complete post, don't take things out of context.

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I stand by this statement. There is a difference between asking questions to learn and giving advise and running down the knowledge of licensed riggers. At this point, I don't think you are in a position to make judgments like that.

When you complete those few more repacks, take and pass the written test, take and pass the oral and complete the practical to the satisfaction of DPRE, then you will be in a position to give advise on rigging and second guess the work of others.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[payback462 0]

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Sorry but your mistaken. There is no way to get one brake line wrapped around a rear riser group of a reserve without entangleing the other side in exactly the same way

yup, i coulda sworn this morning that it could be done, but i tried it today, and obviously, i couldnt do it
thats what i get for posting tired.

[ryoder 1,590]

A few months ago I saw a lowtime jumper come back in from the landing area, and started to pack. After a few minutes of fussing, he asked me to take a look at his canopy and tell him what was wrong. Since I had just seen him jump it, I was sure it was just a simple step-through. After much fussing on my part, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was EXACTLY what you are describing. After some questioning, I learned he had just made his first jump on the canopy since it had been assembled by a rigger who shall remain nameless. The guy had jumped the canopy and landed it w/o ever noticing something was amiss!

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.