popsjumper 2 #51 April 4, 2011 Quote On the other hand, the "flaws" you list are not legitimate; they are straw men in the vernacular of propaganda arguments and, your canopygod obfuscation aside, share the same, ahem, flaw: They are irrelevant. FMD = FMD regardless of how s/he gets there. Next! All this talk about ego and arrogance and here we go... Oh the irony of it all. [/]My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robinheid 0 #52 April 4, 2011 Quote Quote On the other hand, the "flaws" you list are not legitimate; they are straw men in the vernacular of propaganda arguments and, your canopygod obfuscation aside, share the same, ahem, flaw: They are irrelevant. FMD = FMD regardless of how s/he gets there. Next! All this talk about ego and arrogance and here we go... Oh the irony of it all. [/] +1 SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.) "The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #53 April 4, 2011 >Anyone care to comment on the statistic that 83% of skydivers who >died last year were D license holder? That's because D license holders make most of the jumps in the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #54 April 4, 2011 QuoteCollisions happen on those rare occasions when both parties aren't looking. Tell Bob Holler that. It takes 2 to have a collision but only one to cause it. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #55 April 4, 2011 QuoteTo answer your second question: I can't think of one reason it's a better idea than setting the pattern prior to take-off. Still, I'm definitely willing to admit there's something I haven't thought of. Peace. Ian Not a valid reason, but I think that FMD advocates think that way because they are excessively worried about having to do a down- or cross-wind landing in the event that the wind changes between boarding and landing. If that is the case then a little education and practice on landing other directions that into the wind might be a better answer than FMD. After all, when landing out there may be no option. If that fear is taken away then a pre-determined landing direction makes perfect sense."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robinheid 0 #56 April 4, 2011 Quote Quote To answer your second question: I can't think of one reason it's a better idea than setting the pattern prior to take-off. Still, I'm definitely willing to admit there's something I haven't thought of. Peace. Ian Not a valid reason, but I think that FMD advocates think that way because they are excessively worried about having to do a down- or cross-wind landing in the event that the wind changes between boarding and landing. If that is the case then a little education and practice on landing other directions that into the wind might be a better answer than FMD. After all, when landing out there may be no option. If that fear is taken away then a pre-determined landing direction makes perfect sense. Setting a pre-determined landing direction before takeoff. Great idea: Look how much money DZs would save not having to have buy and maintain those pesky windsocks and tetahedrons. Jumpsuit and rig repair companies would also benefit, not to mention the ambulance companies. SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.) "The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
robinheid 0 #57 April 4, 2011 Quote Quote Collisions happen on those rare occasions when both parties aren't looking. Tell Bob Holler that. It takes 2 to have a collision but only one to cause it. Sparky You're half right: It takes 2 to have a collision but only one to cause it when both parties aren't looking. SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.) "The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #58 April 4, 2011 Quote Setting a pre-determined landing direction before takeoff. Great idea: Look how much money DZs would save not having to have buy and maintain those pesky windsocks and tetahedrons. Jumpsuit and rig repair companies would also benefit, not to mention the ambulance companies. There is nothing wrong with landing down- or cross-wind. Especially in L&V winds. IMO those who make it sound like a big deal are doing the sport a disservice and maybe contributing to low turns as people scramble to face into the wind at the last minute. It seems to me that if we plan and dirt dive a landing pattern and stick to it even if the windsock does swing round then things are going to be much more controlled and predictable. In a situation where the rule is FMD and jumpers are scared to land down- or cross-wind, what happens when the windsock swings just after the first guy lands?"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #59 April 4, 2011 >There is nothing wrong with landing down- or cross-wind. Especially >in L&V winds. Agreed. However, in strong winds, it can be dangerous, even deadly. We had a jumper who landed downwind in 15mph winds last year, and he was fortunate to survive with a broken neck. Thus at DZ's that have winds that change rapidly, there needs to be some mechanism to change landing direction before landing. Having a man stationed at the tetrahedron (to control it and prevent switching halfway through) is one way. Having a big arrow is another. FMD is another. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DocPop 1 #60 April 4, 2011 Quote>There is nothing wrong with landing down- or cross-wind. Especially >in L&V winds. Agreed. However, in strong winds, it can be dangerous, even deadly. We had a jumper who landed downwind in 15mph winds last year, and he was fortunate to survive with a broken neck. Thus at DZ's that have winds that change rapidly, there needs to be some mechanism to change landing direction before landing. Having a man stationed at the tetrahedron (to control it and prevent switching halfway through) is one way. Having a big arrow is another. FMD is another. And having personal responsibility to pull yourself off a load if you can't handle the wind is another. Had the jumper you mentioned practiced downwinders in lower wind conditions? 15 mph wind does not have to be a problem for downwinders."The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls." ~ CanuckInUSA Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #61 April 4, 2011 Quote Quote Quote To answer your second question: I can't think of one reason it's a better idea than setting the pattern prior to take-off. Still, I'm definitely willing to admit there's something I haven't thought of. Peace. Ian Not a valid reason, but I think that FMD advocates think that way because they are excessively worried about having to do a down- or cross-wind landing in the event that the wind changes between boarding and landing. If that is the case then a little education and practice on landing other directions that into the wind might be a better answer than FMD. After all, when landing out there may be no option. If that fear is taken away then a pre-determined landing direction makes perfect sense. Setting a pre-determined landing direction before takeoff. Great idea: Look how much money DZs would save not having to have buy and maintain those pesky windsocks and tetahedrons. Jumpsuit and rig repair companies would also benefit, not to mention the ambulance companies. Imagine we do have those. Anyway it has not hurt anyone that we discuss landing direction before boarding the aircraft, specially the swooping area. Result? Rarely a grass stain. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #62 April 4, 2011 Quote All this talk about ego and arrogance and here we go... Oh the irony of it all. [/] Quote +1 *whoosh*My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #63 April 4, 2011 Quote Setting a pre-determined landing direction before takeoff. Great idea: Look how much money DZs would save not having to have buy and maintain those pesky windsocks and tetahedrons. Jumpsuit and rig repair companies would also benefit, not to mention the ambulance companies. Really? REALLY??? Is you mind really THAT far gone that you post such off-the-wall crap as THAT? You cant support your argument so you resort to THAT? REALLY? It may be better for you to back off a little. You're not helping your cause.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #64 April 4, 2011 Quote We had a jumper who landed downwind in 15mph winds last year, and he was fortunate to survive with a broken neck. Bill. I can't believe you are blaming 15mph winds for that. People handle 15mph downwinders easily. That was nothing more than landing error. Bad choice of example and it doesn't support your position. QuoteThus at DZ's that have winds that change rapidly, there needs to be some mechanism to change landing direction before landing. Having a man stationed at the tetrahedron (to control it and prevent switching halfway through) is one way. Having a big arrow is another. FMD is another. Your idea of holding the tetrahedron defeats your entire argument about changing winds. I have to assume that you meant to include holding the arrow, too. FMD is the least safe of your three examples.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #65 April 4, 2011 Regardless of the number of injuries and worse that you guys suffer at the FMD DZ, you guys are going to your grave defending the indefensible aren't you? OK...so be it. Say goodnight, Gracie. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #66 April 4, 2011 Quote>There is nothing wrong with landing down- or cross-wind. Especially >in L&V winds. Agreed. However, in strong winds, it can be dangerous, even deadly. We had a jumper who landed downwind in 15mph winds last year, and he was fortunate to survive with a broken neck. Thus at DZ's that have winds that change rapidly, there needs to be some mechanism to change landing direction before landing. Having a man stationed at the tetrahedron (to control it and prevent switching halfway through) is one way. Having a big arrow is another. FMD is another. I choose to not jump at this DZ predominantly due to FMD. A few years back, FMD downwinded it on the grass (and ended up biffing onto his face). I didn't fully understand the rule and landed into the wind just east of the grass. Got a talking to and told I needed to learn to "take one for the team." While I understand the point of FMD, it also sets up Quote We had a jumper who landed downwind in 15mph winds last year, and he was fortunate to survive with a broken neck. At bigger DZ's, I feel FMD implies responsibility on the part of the FMD. Saying "take one for the team" to 22 other people on the load is not appropriate, IMO. Particularly when the FMD is a hot-shit canopy pilot in addition to being an AFFI, tandem vidiot, training for comp, etc. and is ending their work jump with a 270 or 360 (or bigger) in the middle of traffic. For all the crap Lodi takes for being a non-USPA dropzone, the place at the least has a great safety record with regard to collisions and low turns. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #67 April 4, 2011 >And having personal responsibility to pull yourself off a load if you can't >handle the wind is another. Agreed. Which is why a set landing direction works as long as winds don't change quickly after takeoff. (Hard to pull yourself off the load when the winds switch when they do so right after exit.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #68 April 4, 2011 >I choose to not jump at this DZ predominantly due to FMD. Hmm. On Saturday at Elsinore, during the competitor's briefing, Hammo said "once someone lands in one direction everyone has to land in that direction or land somewhere else." He also mentioned he'd be a lot tougher on people who break pattern and landing rules due to the Perris incident. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #69 April 4, 2011 Quote>I choose to not jump at this DZ predominantly due to FMD. Hmm. On Saturday at Elsinore, during the competitor's briefing, Hammo said "once someone lands in one direction everyone has to land in that direction or land somewhere else." He also mentioned he'd be a lot tougher on people who break pattern and landing rules due to the Perris incident. I don't doubt he did. I also don't doubt that the staff (and majority of peeps that jump at Elsinore don't do HP setups or downwind landings in the main landing area. That's what the swoop pond and area surrounding the swoop pond are for. It's also why I've put up several blades near the pond. And if you did downwind the landing in the main landing area as FMD, you can expect to get a talking to (the first time). The second time might not be so soft (and it's been that way since I arrived here a couple years ago). More to the point, I do not ascribe to FMD in general terms. Yes, winds shift, but not *that* often. We both know the winds generally change twice a day, and those who have been on organized WS loads with me usually hear "we'll be landing towards the lake (or the buildings) but be sure to check the blades." It's also why I've asked wingsuits at Elsinore to land at the swoop pond, simply to manage traffic around tandems (this is a courtesy request, not a policy). Landing direction CAN be managed responsibly. I'm not saying that Perris doesn't; I'm saying I've had my own experiences there that left a long-lasting impression (whether it's appropriate or not). Have I seen downwind landings in the main landing area at Elsinore and most every other DZ? Of course. And consequently observed one of the S&TA's or instructors having a conversation with that person immediately after. I've never seen multiple jumpers addressed with "you guys should have taken one for the team." My point of "FMD implies a responsibility" is the one I'd hope folks take away from my post. If you're going to land downwind, either announce it in advance and/or land in a high performance area. If the DZ doesn't have an HP area, then take your own pass. If the DZ doesn't provide a separate pass, then find another DZ that does. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #70 April 4, 2011 >I also don't doubt that the staff (and majority of peeps that jump at >Elsinore don't do HP setups or downwind landings in the main landing >area. That's what the swoop pond and area surrounding the swoop pond >are for. It's also why I've put up several blades near the pond. And if you >did downwind the landing in the main landing area as FMD, you can expect >to get a talking to (the first time). The second time might not be so soft >(and it's been that way since I arrived here a couple years ago). Sounds like a good plan, one that Perris and Elsinore share. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
drewcarp 0 #71 April 5, 2011 Quote FMD Cons: 1. Pattern not set until X time (who knows when and by whom) 2. No one in the air knows how they're going to be landing until X time 3. Relies on one person making a good judgement call 4. The people who need the most help (students/newbs) get the least 5. The first person down has the least motivation to make a good call 6. People in the air are focussed on the ground and not the air 7. more? That seems pretty important to me. I'd rather focus on clearing my airspace and doing some canopy drills than staring at the ground trying to figure out which way guy flying the velo landed. Why can't the pilot inform the load just prior to exit of the wind direction and have everyone use that. He likely has the frequency pulled up. The time from exit to under canopy is much shorter than the time between when the FMD lands and the guy on the 280 starts his pattern so the window for a wind change is only 1 minute longer and then no one has to trust the guy swooping downwind nor look for him. Or I for one would pay an extra dollar a load to have someone on the ground manning the Tetrahedron (big red arrow). We have one that sometimes gets stuck and is pointing opposite the wind sock and that fucks shit up terribly, as half the people watch one and not the other and then its a total shit show, kinda like FMD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #72 April 5, 2011 >I for one would pay an extra dollar a load to have someone on the >ground manning the Tetrahedron (big red arrow). Probably the best solution for a DZ with shifting winds. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #73 April 5, 2011 QuoteIf that is the case then a little education and practice on landing other directions that into the wind might be a better answer than FMD. After all, when landing out there may be no option. Tell that to the tandem student I have to land down wind in 10 to 15 because the winds shifted and you couldn't figure out how to read and adapt to a landing pattern from 1000 feet above it. You really should learn how to be a skydiver before you advise us on how to do this thing.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #74 April 5, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf that is the case then a little education and practice on landing other directions that into the wind might be a better answer than FMD. After all, when landing out there may be no option. Tell that to the tandem student I have to land down wind in 10 to 15 because the winds shifted and you couldn't figure out how to read and adapt to a landing pattern from 1000 feet above it. You really should learn how to be a skydiver before you advise us on how to do this thing. (throwing the BS flag) I've jumped at DZs that had a large arrow on the ground indicating the madatory landing direction for all. Everyone landed that direction, even if it was a slight downwind (3-4 mph) EXCEPT the tandems. They all chased the sock on their landings. At one DZ. apparently the TMs told the DZO that if they had to land with the arrow regardless of L&V wind direction it was more dangerous for them and their passengers so they refused and said they'd not jump.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
1888 0 #75 April 5, 2011 To go over your list at Perris, where the incident that spawned this thread occurred: I did not mean to imply that this was the situation at Perris on the day in question or at any time. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
