Front risering on saber2

[voosab2150 0]

I have a Sab2 150 that I have had from new with approx. 120 jumps. When I am front risering, the canopy tends to buck around a bit. I'm not quite sure if this is because my brake lines are too short, or if it is a characteristic of this canopy. Also a mate of mine thinks it could be because it is not loaded heavily enough, although at around a 1.01 wing loading I would have thought that this should not have affected it too much. If anybody could give me some help on this problem, it would be greatly appreciated.

[masher 1]

I've got an original Sabre 150 loaded at 1.1. Similar wingloading, similar size.

When I do front riser turns, and double fronts (at height), my canopy doesn't buck around at all, although it does get a bit hard to hold the front riser down after about 270degs... :)

With my volumes of experience (pls note sarcasm) I would put this down to your brake lines. Do you know how much slack you have? Mine have got about 2" of travel before the tail starts to deflect.

Anyway, PD don't recomend that you load above 1.0, so it shouldn't be that....

--
Arching is overrated - Marlies

[Shark 0]

Are your brakes set at the factory settings? It sounds like your brake lines are a little short.
I've experienced this on my prevoius canopy. Check with your local rigger.

[FrogNog 1]

My Hornet (supposedly very similar to a Saber2) bucks like hell on double front risers, and to a lesser degree on one front riser. I have been told this is a combination of how the Hornet is made, plus my brake lines being a bit short.

However, I like the brake lines where they are because I can land it in zero wind without running too fast. So for now, I am just accepting the bucking and learning to live with it. I may try lengthening them in a while, but I don't hold out much hope the bucking will go completely away until, eventually, I get a different type of canopy.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Unstable 9]

Hmm, I also have a S2 That I am loading about 1.3 - It is rock solid deep into the front risers - Methinks this could be a Wingloading issue....

=========Shaun ==========

[Shark 0]

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Methinks this could be a Wingloading issue....

I bet I can get a Sabre2 210 to do it with shorter brake lines....

[Tonto 1]

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However, I like the brake lines where they are because I can land it in zero wind without running too fast.

That has little to do with where your toggles are on your brake lines, and more to do with what the brake lines do to your canopy. You should be able to lengthen your brake lines(within reason) and still be able to land in zero wind.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[AggieDave 6]

Your brake lines are too short, have your rigger show you how to properly adjust them in steps so you find the right medium.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

Your brake lines are too short for that application. If you use your front risers to dive, then you need to be able to pull both of them down all the way to your chest with no deflection of the tail. This, of course, means that you are going to have to utilize a longer toggle stroke to get your canopy the same degree of "stopping" power that you previously had with the tighter brake setting. I, as a rule, fly all of my canopies with very-loose brakes as I routinely use my front risers for diving prior to landing.

BTW: I jump a Sabre2 97 for about 33 percent of my skydives these days. It's my wingsuit main.

[FrogNog 1]

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However, I like the brake lines where they are because I can land it in zero wind without running too fast.

That has little to do with where your toggles are on your brake lines, and more to do with what the brake lines do to your canopy. You should be able to lengthen your brake lines(within reason) and still be able to land in zero wind.

t

Yeah, when I said "I like the brake lines where they are" I meant "I like the length of the brake lines". I mean, obviously my toggles are at the ends of my brake lines.

I am concerned if I lengthen my brake lines to the point they don't interfere with my front-risering, I won't have the toggle reach I need for no-wind landings; I finish those landings at almost full arm extension. If I lengthened the brake lines, I would have to take a wrap or something; that doesn't sound optimal. In fact it sounds scary to try and do that at the end of a swoop.

But, my issue belongs more in the swoopage forum, I reckon. The original poster just wanted to know why he was bucking, and I see general agreement his (and my) brake lines are too short.

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Pull.

[Tonto 1]

Both you and he could lengthen the brake lines and shorten the risers. 2 inches makes a huge difference.

Trust me when I say your canopy does not like the front AND the back pulled down at the same time.

The bucking you're feeling is feedback that your canopy is not happy with that configuration, but it is your canopy, and you're the one who has to land it, every dive you do.

t

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[randu 0]

I heard previously such opinion: try front riser turns and double front riser approaches up high without toggles in your hand. If this makes difference (no buckling), your brake lines are too short.

[FrogNog 1]

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Trust me when I say your canopy does not like the front AND the back pulled down at the same time.

Oh, I agree 100%. I started looking up at my canopy to see what this bucking looks like. Also got it on video. Eeewww!

I'll look into brake line lengthening (and riser shortening) with my rigger. My skepticism comes from my friend's Hornet 190; he had the same problem and lengthened his brake lines, which helped but didn't fix the problem. He didn't change the risers at all, though.

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Pull.

[bmcd308 0]

>>lengthen the brake lines and shorten the risers<<

Why would shortening the risers help?

Shorter risers would put him deeper in his available arm stroke at a given amount of toggle input (i.e. two inches down from full arm extension leaves more arm stroke unused than two inches down from ear level).

Brent

----------------------------------
www.jumpelvis.com

[sammer 0]

I have a 190 Hornet and I think I know what you are talking about. Lengthening the risers and steering lines will help. Every inch you add to the risers will increase your bottom end flare by the corresponding amount. I never could find a happy medium with mine though. If I lengthened the lines to the point where they still had slack when front risering, I would usually have to slide out the landings. That works fine until you try landing it in full glide (without speeding it up). Then it seemed like it just didn't have enough flare. Could be just my inexperience, but I have heard many other Hornet pilots say the same thing.

Sam

[FrogNog 1]

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>>lengthen the brake lines and shorten the risers<<

Why would shortening the risers help?

Shorter risers would put him deeper in his available arm stroke at a given amount of toggle input (i.e. two inches down from full arm extension leaves more arm stroke unused than two inches down from ear level).

Brent

See, this is why I said I was going to talk to my rigger about it.
I'll compare the riser length on my friend's Hornet 190 to mine, too. I know his canopy feels different when flying and landing than mine; I don't know if this is because of the riser length or because on his rig the canopy connects to the harness way higher than on my rig. (His rig is made for someone very tall and has at least 4 inches of "shoulder room" under the yoke when I wear it.)

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Pull.

[FrogNog 1]

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I have a 190 Hornet and I think I know what you are talking about. Lengthening the risers and steering lines will help. Every inch you add to the risers will increase your bottom end flare by the corresponding amount. I never could find a happy medium with mine though. If I lengthened the lines to the point where they still had slack when front risering, I would usually have to slide out the landings. That works fine until you try landing it in full glide (without speeding it up). Then it seemed like it just didn't have enough flare. Could be just my inexperience, but I have heard many other Hornet pilots say the same thing.

Sam

I'm not ready to throw in the towel on being unable to find a happy medium quite yet. I have fairly long arms and I love my Hornet so far.
When I was first switching between accelerated landings and regular-glide landings, I ran into some trouble with the flare. I realized I had to decide what type / speed of flare I was going to use based on my airspeed at flare time. From regular glide, I just pull my strings harder and it's all good.

And back on the happy medium thing, I figure I could probably sacrifice at least a couple inches of brake pull to make things better because I managed to stall it on landing once by thoroughly finishing my flare. (I also know my stall point is full arm extension, push wrists down.) That was a memorable, stand-up, no-run landing. ("Oof!" )

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Pull.

[sammer 0]

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I'm not ready to throw in the towel on being unable to find a happy medium quite yet. I have fairly long arms and I love my Hornet so far.
When I was first switching between accelerated landings and regular-glide landings, I ran into some trouble with the flare. I realized I had to decide what type / speed of flare I was going to use based on my airspeed at flare time. From regular glide, I just pull my strings harder and it's all good.

And back on the happy medium thing, I figure I could probably sacrifice at least a couple inches of brake pull to make things better because I managed to stall it on landing once by thoroughly finishing my flare. (I also know my stall point is full arm extension, push wrists down.) That was a memorable, stand-up, no-run landing. ("Oof!" )

Don't get me wrong, the Hornet is a great canopy, but it does have a very deep control range. If you are happy with your brake lines now and you can stall it then you are there. My arms are maybe not as long...I can take a couple of wraps and still not stall mine. Getting longer risers will help. If you lengthen your risers 2" and then lengthen your brakelines by 2" you will have the 2" extra slack when on the risers, but you will have the same flare (as far as the canopy is concerned) at full extension. I would definately give that a try if you are looking for some more range.

That being said, I do love my Hornet, and I think that canopy is much underated. Just don't tell mine I've been cheating on her with a Crossfire.

Sam

[FrogNog 1]

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Don't get me wrong, the Hornet is a great canopy, but it does have a very deep control range. If you are happy with your brake lines now and you can stall it then you are there. My arms are maybe not as long...I can take a couple of wraps and still not stall mine. Getting longer risers will help. If you lengthen your risers 2" and then lengthen your brakelines by 2" you will have the 2" extra slack when on the risers, but you will have the same flare (as far as the canopy is concerned) at full extension. I would definately give that a try if you are looking for some more range.

That being said, I do love my Hornet, and I think that canopy is much underated. Just don't tell mine I've been cheating on her with a Crossfire.

Sam

I'm afraid I'll need something like 12" longer risers. Then my arms will be a bit too short.

Brian Germain says most canopies are designed with 21" - 22" risers in mind, and longer risers have some suboptimal effects, I believe. (Not sky-is-falling stuff, and he said canopies are so complex that it's not as simple as "adjust x, get y" all the time.)

First step, measure my risers. As soon as this nasty June rain goes away I'll get on that.

I hope I can find a happy medium (or get the Hornet working swell altogether for front risering), put up with the bucking, or run into some extra money for a different canopy.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[tbrown 26]

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I heard previously such opinion: try front riser turns and double front riser approaches up high without toggles in your hand. If this makes difference (no buckling), your brake lines are too short.

Another thing you can try up high is to look at your steering lines while you pull your front risers down. You'll want to take a really GOOD look around first for other canopies before you start, and you'll want to have your hands in the toggles. The whole idea being to see if you are in fact pulling the steering lines down as you front riser. Ideally, you should be able to get the risers down and still see some slack arcing in your steering lines. If not, then your brakes are set short and that's why you're bucking.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !