Swooping, hookturns, the danger of skydiving and the danger of advice heard on DZ.com

[basejumper1 0]

Years ago, during Guy Wright's bigways, I watch Guy's cameraman spiral down to land with the general populus. Ultimately, he did a 90 degree turn to final and clipped a DZ.com regular at 100-200 feet. DZ.com-regular was sent into line twists but subsequently kicked out just in time to land safely.

This DZ.com local has complained about hookturns and cited this incident as "evidence" that hookturns are dangerous, since it's happened.

Straight up... one idiot made a huge mistake and the other idiot used it as hookturn propaganda ever since.

Sometimes the stories you hear (this one included) aren't 100% factual.

Remember... The idiot always has the right of way!

[billvon 2,991]

> . . . .and cited this incident as "evidence" that hookturns are
>dangerous, since it's happened.

They are. The best in the business have died doing them.

[mjosparky 4]

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> . . . .and cited this incident as "evidence" that hookturns are
>dangerous, since it's happened.

They are. The best in the business have died doing them.

And the best in the business have killed others doing them. Spiraling down on a big way in stupid not mention arrogant.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Rugby82 0]

Like Brian Germain always says: "I'm not proud of the swoops that won me competitions but more of the swoops I didn't made".

This referring to not do swoop in high-traffic situations when it can become very dangerous.

I love swooping but won't do it at all cost. When it's too busy in the pattern than know when to say NO and do it another time.

Blue skies!

[basejumper1 0]

You're very clever. I know that hookturns can be dangerous. The point still remains.

[jimmytavino 16]

since i fly my canopy rather conservatively, and pretty much Never swoop.... most all my turns are limited to 90s. i try to avoid getting into a situation where i'm getting low, and have yet to complete my turns.. THat is what creates low altitude "hurry Up " 180's in order to get "into the wind"...and that can be trouble, for ANyone in the air.
Staying ahead of the flow, on all descents, and keeping track of all others in the air is a good approach to take...

I try to turn a very specific 90 to base leg, and then another to final... and have established a rather simple and straighforward rule....
"i will gladly yield the right of way, to anyone who knowingly or even UNknowingly feels that THEIR descent is more important than anyone elses' , including mine.."
No problem...
sometimes folks let themselves get "distracted " by their desires to perform one type of landing over another"..
No problem... i'll give 'em as much room as it takes...
Nobody does everything perfectly on every canopy flight, and each one is different but in heavier traffic we have to be diligent...

safety first...
and What the hell.....
safety second, Too!!!

jmy

[firemedic 7]

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Years ago, during Guy Wright's bigways, I watch Guy's cameraman spiral down to land with the general populus. Ultimately, he did a 90 degree turn to final and clipped a DZ.com regular at 100-200 feet. DZ.com-regular was sent into line twists but subsequently kicked out just in time to land safely.

This DZ.com local has complained about hookturns and cited this incident as "evidence" that hookturns are dangerous, since it's happened.

Straight up... one idiot made a huge mistake and the other idiot used it as hookturn propaganda ever since.

Sometimes the stories you hear (this one included) aren't 100% factual.

Remember... The idiot always has the right of way!

I would characterize the jumper that got collided with as a sensible canopy pilot if he was in fact flying a safe pattern and the one who hit him as unsafe and wreckless. I've see this attitude from many hot dog swoop gods on several DZs. Their behavior is "Idiotic" and dangerous to the "Idiots" who want to fly a safe pattern for their own safety and that of others.

[MakeItHappen 15]

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Years ago, during Guy Wright's bigways, I watch Guy's cameraman spiral down to land with the general populus. Ultimately, he did a 90 degree turn to final and clipped a DZ.com regular at 100-200 feet. DZ.com-regular was sent into line twists but subsequently kicked out just in time to land safely.

This DZ.com local has complained about hookturns and cited this incident as "evidence" that hookturns are dangerous, since it's happened.

Straight up... one idiot made a huge mistake and the other idiot used it as hookturn propaganda ever since.

Sometimes the stories you hear (this one included) aren't 100% factual.

Remember... The idiot always has the right of way!

How about we use that incident as one of many examples of it is dangerous to spiral down through the pattern?

.

.
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[billvon 2,991]

>I would characterize the jumper that got collided with as a sensible canopy
>pilot if he was in fact flying a safe pattern and the one who hit him as
>unsafe and wreckless.

The problem is that we have seen two people, two of the best in the business, be as safe as they can be - and still come very, very close to killing themselves, even though they both cleared their airspace, were positive they were clear, and were the only two people in the sky.

There are some kinds of landings that are simply unsafe to mix with ANY other approach, and are considerably less safe than a normal landing. That doesn't mean that they should never be done - but it does mean that they cannot be safely done if even one other person is in the air with them.

[firemedic 7]

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>I would characterize the jumper that got collided with as a sensible canopy
>pilot if he was in fact flying a safe pattern and the one who hit him as
>unsafe and wreckless.

The problem is that we have seen two people, two of the best in the business, be as safe as they can be - and still come very, very close to killing themselves, even though they both cleared their airspace, were positive they were clear, and were the only two people in the sky.

There are some kinds of landings that are simply unsafe to mix with ANY other approach, and are considerably less safe than a normal landing. That doesn't mean that they should never be done - but it does mean that they cannot be safely done if even one other person is in the air with them.

Thanks BV. That is what I was trying to say but did a piss poor job of it. I suppose this would bring us back to the "how" of segregating HP pilots from non HP pilots on mixed loads and figuring out how to prevent HP pilots from running into each other.

[popsjumper 2]

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Ultimately, he did a 90 degree turn to final and clipped a DZ.com regular anyone at 100-200 feet.

There's your idiot.

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complained about hookturns and cited this incident as "evidence" that hookturns are dangerous, since it's happened.

Rightfully so because they are...even more so in pattern traffic. Do you not understand that?

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Remember... The idiot always has the right of way!

Sage advice. Just make sure YOU are not the idiot.

Your rant is misdirected.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mjosparky 4]

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Years ago, during Guy Wright's bigways, I watch Guy's cameraman spiral down to land with the general populus. Ultimately, he did a 90 degree turn to final and clipped a DZ.com regular at 100-200 feet. DZ.com-regular was sent into line twists but subsequently kicked out just in time to land safely.

This DZ.com local has complained about hookturns and cited this incident as "evidence" that hookturns are dangerous, since it's happened.

Straight up... one idiot made a huge mistake and the other idiot used it as hookturn propaganda ever since.

Sometimes the stories you hear (this one included) aren't 100% factual.

Remember... The idiot always has the right of way!

You appear to be using this thread to draw attention away from serious threat to skydiver safety. Do you think that by blowing smoke you will a 270 in the normal pattern any less dangerous to other people landing?
You are making yourself look foolish.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[basejumper1 0]

You are right. I was drunk and angry when I posted this. My intention was to be argumentative and I apologize.

[kkeenan 14]

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... one idiot made a huge mistake and the other idiot used it as hookturn propaganda ever since.

Yeah, you must have been drunk to post this bunch of crap. A guy gets hit from behind by someone doing something completely stupid and unsafe, and you bitch because he has the balls to use it as an example to others. If it had turned out a bit differently, you would still be hearing about it, only from different people, because those two would have been in a dead heap in the ZHills landing area.

I can only hope that your shitty judgment doesn't extend to your skydiving. Oh yeah, you were drunk. Great excuse for being an Asshat.

Kevin Keenan

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[basejumper1 0]

Asshat. I like it.

[kkeenan 14]

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Asshat. I like it.

Get used to it.

_____________________________________
Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[mjosparky 4]

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My intention was to be argumentative and I apologize.

If your apology is sincere great if not……..

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[robinheid 0]

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Remember... The idiot always has the right of way!

+1

SCR-6933 / SCS-3463 / D-5533 / BASE 44 / CCS-37 / 82d Airborne (Ret.)

"The beginning of wisdom is to first call things by their right names."

[popsjumper 2]

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You are right. I was drunk and angry when I posted this. My intention was to be argumentative and I apologize.

Your punishment is:
5 flights on a 260 sq ft parachute doing straight-up, text book landing patterns landing within 5 meters of a pre-determined target.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[shah269 0]

I'm sorry but how about us new guys who are flying large slower canopies. The DZ I currently go to is very organized, but I'm told other DZ's tend to be a little bit more loose.
What do you suggest that we on the large slower canopies do so as to stay out of the way?
A good friend suggested going into deep brakes up wind and waiting for everyone to get down and then starting my pattern.
Suggestions?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[DocPop 1]

That sounds like a good idea to me. The only problem I could foresee with that is if there are two guys on the load both trying to be last!

I had a situation where over several jumps I was entering the pattern at a similar time to a videographer (a light girl on a Katana 89). We would look at each other and wait for someone to go first. After this happened 2 or 3 times we spoke on the ground and agreed that whenever that happened I would let her go first.

Problem solved by a bit of communication!

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[shah269 0]

DocPop
So as the new guy who would be the person to talk to regarding this?
I dont' with to get in the way and make things harder for others.
Is there an SOP for this or is it DZ to DZ kind of thing?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[FB1609 0]

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I'm sorry but how about us new guys who are flying large slower canopies. The DZ I currently go to is very organized, but I'm told other DZ's tend to be a little bit more loose.
What do you suggest that we on the large slower canopies do so as to stay out of the way?
A good friend suggested going into deep brakes up wind and waiting for everyone to get down and then starting my pattern.
Suggestions?

I really don't think this should be an issue for those learning to have to avoid D licence jumpers...unfortunately it seems it is!

[DocPop 1]

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DocPop
So as the new guy who would be the person to talk to regarding this?
I dont' with to get in the way and make things harder for others.
Is there an SOP for this or is it DZ to DZ kind of thing?

My suggestion would be to speak to either the DZO or the S&TA as those guys should have an overview of what the other jumpers should be doing.

Give them an outline of what you plan to do and ask if this fits in with the way the DZ runs and if there is anything you should be aware of.

I would not personally assume anything about a new DZ - it's so much safer to ask and get the facts.

"The ground does not care who you are. It will always be tougher than the human behind the controls."

~ CanuckInUSA

[danielcroft 2]

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Your punishment is:
5 flights on a 260 sq ft parachute doing straight-up, text book landing patterns landing within 5 meters of a pre-determined target.

He's (I assume from his username) a BASE jumper, how is this punishment!?

@ Shah
I think my first downsize was actually driven, in part, by my desire to reduce the difference between the speed of my canopy and the average. If you're loading at (say) .9 and the average at your DZ is (say) 1.3 then you're just going to have to find a good way to deal with being passed. Waiting in brakes is fine as long as you're not confusing people behind you. As DocPop mentioned, communication is often the key.

Before anyone says it, I didn't just randomly downsize, I made sure I was ready and had senior people who agreed I was ready.