Helmet advice

[LannerFalcon 0]

Hi I'm investing in a helmet having done 40 jumps. I want an open face one, what do people advise. Someone told me the Caffe ones aren't very good as their designed for windsurfing? Is it worth sheffling out for an evo?? any advice appreciated!

.............................................................

Break now Jester!

[Chrisky 0]

I guess you refer to the Gath, and it indeed was designed for surfing.
Personally, i have a Bonehead Guner, which is a very comfortable helmet and one of the few to fit my weird shaped head (There's gotta be room for all these voices). My advice is try out as many as you can, then go for one that is most comfy to you, even if it is 200+ $.

There's nothing like a comfy helmet...

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[adamjenner 0]

i've got a mindwarp (bonehead) and it fits perfectly and i've happy with it, some other open face ones you may want to look at are the bonehead guner or the skysystems hurricane, just ask people around your DZ if you can just look at their helmets and you can make your own choice from there.

[sundevil777 102]

Do you have money burning a hole in your pocket? If not, go with a Pro-tec. I am still terribly out of fashion with mine.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[LannerFalcon 0]

is it not difficult to use an audible alti with a protech???

.............................................................

Break now Jester!

[sundevil777 102]

It depends on the type of liner. The liners from Paragear are easy to use it, my protrack fits snugly into the ear opening foam all by itself, and it doesn't push against the ear, even with my 7 3/4 hat size.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Kris 0]

Quote

Do you have money burning a hole in your pocket? If not, go with a Pro-tec. I am still terribly out of fashion with mine.

Seconded. The ProTec is the only helmet out there that offers any real protection. However, if you want a nice fashion statement that does a good job, I love my Bonehead Mindwarp.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Chrisky 0]

Quote

The ProTec is the only helmet out there that offers any real protection.

Now i'm really curious on what facts this statemant is based.

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[Kris 0]

Quote

Now i'm really curious on what facts this statemant is based.

How about the fact that it's the only helmet that is widely used in skydiving that is certified to any standard?

Specifically, CE-1385, which is a multiple-impact rating.

Sky, Muff Bro, Rodriguez Bro, and
Bastion of Purity and Innocence!™

[Chrisky 0]

Don't get me wrong, this was a serious question, not doubting or pun intended. Thanks for the info.

I'd be curious to see how all those carbon-fiber helmets would perform, given it would be economical to have them tested according to the certification standard. Bonehead just hasn't broken into the bicycle and skate market just yet...

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[Ncrowe 0]

I've got about 10 jumps on a brand new bonehead mindwarp and I love it!!

"Don't Mess Around With the Guy in Shades- Oh No!!! "

[Pendragon 1]

The Z1 EVO (made by Parasport Italia) is pretty popular here in the UK; lots of people at Headcorn wear one. The full face (for when you're "B" licence) appears to be very popular for FS!

There are pockets inside for an audible (by both ears); flat sides (on the open face) which I've seen many mount cameras to (when they're allowed to jump camera!)

Try wearing a few different types - it will depend on the shape of your head to a certain extent as to what feels comfortable.

As for safety, I bumped into someone who had a collision in freefall, got knocked out and landed (after a CYPRESS fire) on the tarmac still unconcious. His Z1 full face was in a bit of a state, but it protected him well (so he said).

You can get them mail order (The Kit Store in Headcorn sell a lot).

Also, don't knock the Pro-Tec. It's a very good helmet, and not very expensive.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Okay, the following is intended to discuss helmet design and testing, its not intended to contradict anybody.
Have a google for the CE standard that Kris referenced, its actually written for Kayaking and other white water activities.
Namely they are good for impact with rock like objects up to speeds of around 5m/sec (11 and a bit mph), and as Kris mentioned thay have to be good for multiple impacts.

Again, as Kris mentioned the Protec is the only lid that is in popular skydiving use that meets this standard.

"I'd be curious to see how all those carbon-fiber helmets would perform"
Some other standards worth looking at from other sports with similar impact characteristics...

Snell (good site at http://www.smf.org/)
ASTM F2040 (Helmets Used for Recreational Snow Sports)
CE 1077 (snow sports helmets)
CE 1078 (Bycycle helmets)
NB if you replace the CE with EN or even 'BS EN' your googles will be more fruitful.
Some of the modern boarding helmets out there don't have the same 'uncool' bulk of the Protecs and are also rated to some sort of standard.

Some discussion on cycle helmets and their effectiveness, or lack of, here....http://www.cyclehelmets.org/mf.html#1013

Tonto believes helmets (in skydiving) are pretty ineffective for averting serious injury. This argument does not sit well with me intuitively, however after some digging around, I'm slowly being converted to his way of thinking.

Helmets are great for minor scrapes and knocks, but are pretty ineffective against major deceleration trauma, where the damage is primarily to internal organs (torn aorta, ruptured spleen, lung punctures etc). Long story short, if you hook it in, a helmet probably won't save you. Therefore is there any point testing them to any specific (higher impact energy) standard?

I have to wear a helmet under our BPA rules, and am comfortable with the rationale of mitigating relatively minor knocks, kicks in the face, door frame collisions etc, but these are low energy events.


Sorry to be a geek, safety, its what I do for a living.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Chrisky 0]

Thanks for the elaborate posts guys, this will answer a lot of tech questions (together with the other pro/con helmet threads) if people actually do a search before posting about why and what helmet. (no pun intended whatsoever)

I don't think a helmet as a PIPS (Planet impact protection system) makes a lot of sense, because if i hit the planet hard enough to hurt my head, the lower parts of my body are already smahed to meat pie anyway...

It is a very valuable shelter from solid kicks, door frames and the like in plane and freefall (to a certain degree, been there done that) and a perfect mounting tool for audibles.

My point was, that having a helmet tested and certified, you need to burn up a couple of dozen helmets in the testing process. This is not a viable (econimical) option for many or most manufacturers of skydiving helmets (wild guess here). Thus i like to think they are build tough enough but simply didn't run through the cert process.
Anyone who knows better please enlighten me.
Then again, my first helmet was a garage plaster carbon fiber and superglu model...

The mind is like a parachute - it only works once it's open.
From the edge you just see more.
... Not every Swooper hooks & not every Hooker swoops ...

[nacmacfeegle 0]

"This is not a viable (econimical) option for many or most manufacturers of skydiving helmets (wild guess here)."

I reckon the major cost would be reworking non conforming models, redesigning, retooling, re-testing etc. That said, an 'approved' helmet would almost market itself, as the first one would set the bar for all others to follow.
But I'm taking a SWAG (scientific wild assed guess) on the hassles involved with testing and conformance requirements.
"Thus i like to think they are build tough enough but simply didn't run through the cert process."
I suspect so as well, although I've seen some pretty flimsy looking lids around (Gath for example), it would be interesting to see how they all stack up.

I think that devising suitable test criteria and actually testing some existing models would be a great college/university project for someone.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[pilotdave 0]

Yeah I think you're right. They know very well that the skydiving helmets probably won't meet any certification, so they don't test them at all (or at least dont publish the results).

What scares me is the idea that a helmet COULD make an impact worse. A poorly place rivet or bolt or buckle could concentrate a force that would ordinarily be spread out. Or a visor could shatter sending shards of plastic into your eyes instead. I mean, visors are PROBABLY shatter resistant and all that, but do we KNOW?

I still think untested skydiving helmets are safer than nothing or frap hats but without any kind of standards, we can't know for sure... except from experience.

Dave

[wmw999 2,452]

Quote

I don't think a helmet as a PIPS (Planet impact protection system) makes a lot of sense, because if i hit the planet hard enough to hurt my head, the lower parts of my body are already smahed to meat pie anyway...

A friend of mine died of a head injury earlier this year. He also broke a collar bone, and maybe his neck (although it didn't appear that there was paralysis). He did hit weird, but the head injury is what killed him, as has been the case with a number of other jumpers over the years.

I do hope my helmet will help protect my head if I have a bad landing. Of course, it's a sleek and sexy Pro-tec.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[unformed 0]

Quote

My point was, that having a helmet tested and certified, you need to burn up a couple of dozen helmets in the testing process. This is not a viable (econimical) option for many or most manufacturers of skydiving helmets (wild guess here). Thus i like to think they are build tough enough but simply didn't run through the cert process.
Anyone who knows better please enlighten me

I would think the most expensive part of getting certified is the cost of testing and redtape. I know Sony itself has had to push back releases of new laptops (that are available in Europe) due to failing UL Testing. Passing government standards is by no means easy or cheap. As skydiving helment manuafacturers cater to a rather small group of people, wthey're not able to spend so much money on testing equipment, R&D, etc. I would assume, or at least hope, that they would do some testing, but probably not to the level the government certifications require.

This ad space for sale.

[unformed 0]

Quote

is it not difficult to use an audible alti with a protech???

The protec I have has a dytter installed in it. The earhole was made larger (you could do it with a dremel) the alti stuck in, and then secured with zipties. Works nicely. I think I'm going to take it out and sticka protrack in.

This ad space for sale.

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

I would think the most expensive part of getting certified is the cost of testing and redtape. I know Sony itself has had to push back releases of new laptops (that are available in Europe) due to failing UL Testing. Passing government standards is by no means easy or cheap. As skydiving helment manuafacturers cater to a rather small group of people, wthey're not able to spend so much money on testing equipment, R&D, etc. I would assume, or at least hope, that they would do some testing, but probably not to the level the government certifications require.

You see this with motorcycle helmets - Snell ratings are possibly more comprehensive (some dispute this), but there's no doubt that you're paying for having that sticker. In some cases, the difference between two models from one make is having just the DOT, or the Snell as well plus $30.

I'm not sure what an effective test is for skydiving use. Anything stops you from cutting your scalp on the door, but what level of impact protection is useful. Making sure there aren't any pressure points seems like the key. And of course, good fit.

[pilotdave 0]

Quote

You see this with motorcycle helmets - Snell ratings are possibly more comprehensive (some dispute this), but there's no doubt that you're paying for having that sticker. In some cases, the difference between two models from one make is having just the DOT, or the Snell as well plus $30.

Well, you arent paying for a sticker, you're paying for a safer helmet. DOT ratings mean almost nothing.

Dave

[nacmacfeegle 0]

There are 13 different Snell standards, so selecting, say, a Snell rated helmet may not necessarilly be pertinant to our particular suite of hazards and mitigation requirements.

EG a Snell rated horse riding helmet might not be an awful lot of use, but its still Snell 'compliant'.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[lowie 0]

I like my mindwarp as well.

[fundgh 0]

The funny thing is that most helmets with or with out rating made for another industry other than skydiving cost half as much? why the hell are skydiving helmets so darn expensive? I can understand carbon fibre, but some helmets that are just plastic with some thin padding cost almost two hundred bucks. The Boeri I have been using was $100 and I would bet $$ that it has much better protection than many skydiving specific helmets.

...FUN FOR ALL!

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

You see this with motorcycle helmets - Snell ratings are possibly more comprehensive (some dispute this), but there's no doubt that you're paying for having that sticker. In some cases, the difference between two models from one make is having just the DOT, or the Snell as well plus $30.

Well, you arent paying for a sticker, you're paying for a safer helmet. DOT ratings mean almost nothing.

Dave

Like I said, not everyone agrees that the Snell rating is "safer." It is a different test, and unlike DOT, it's actually done, not self certified, which gives one a little more confidence. But you can't say with certainty that a snell rated motorcycle helmet is better than one with merely the DOT.